# Another Dunkel thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Beer Recipes\ **Created:** [October 15, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199 "2019-10-15T20:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jeffy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jeffy/32/12842_2.png) [@jeffy](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jeffy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/1 "2019-10-15T20:05:21Z")
I had some really nice German lagers in Denver last week and want to brew a Dunkel next.  I have ordered a sack of Barke Munich for 95% of the grain bill. What I am wondering about is the type of water I want to shoot for in Bru’n Water.  Is Brown/Full better than Munich (straight or boiled) or is there a more appropriate water formula to shoot for in this style? ---
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/2 "2019-10-15T20:44:16Z")
Never use a city profile.  There’s no way of knowing what the brewer does with the water.  The color/flavor profiles are the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Robertestein05_gmail.com)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/3 "2019-10-15T21:02:22Z")
^^^^ +1,000. Brewers also often have a different source than the city water report you see, and even the Reinheitsgebot allows brewers to add or remove any minerals they like, as long as the result is still water that could, in theory, exist somewhere in the natural world.  They modify the water any way they have to, to a) hit their desired pH and b) get the flavor profile they want in the beer.  We should follow suit. ---
**Author:** ![BrewBama](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/brewbama/32/21184_2.png) [@BrewBama](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/BrewBama)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/4 "2019-10-15T21:12:47Z")
I recently brewed a Dunkel and used Bru’n Water’s Brown Balanced profile: Calcium (Ca): 50.0 ppm Magnesium (Mg): 10.0 ppm Sodium (Na): 27.0 ppm Sulfate (SO4): 70.0 ppm Chloride (Cl): 55.0 ppm Bicarbonate (HCO3): 90.0 ppm ---
**Author:** ![hopfenundmalz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/hopfenundmalz/32/11193_2.png) [@hopfenundmalz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/hopfenundmalz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/5 "2019-10-15T22:16:24Z")
> [@](#): > > ^^^^ > +1,000. > > Brewers also often have a different source than the city water report you see, and even the Reinheitsgebot allows brewers to add or remove any minerals they like, as long as the result is still water that could, in theory, exist somewhere in the natural world.  They modify the water any way they have to, to a) hit their desired pH and b) get the flavor profile they want in the beer.  We should follow suit. They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger. I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut. ---
**Author:** ![BrewBama](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/brewbama/32/21184_2.png) [@BrewBama](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/BrewBama)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/6 "2019-10-15T22:34:22Z")
Here’s Kai’s Dunkel water: 58mg/L Ca; 3mg/L Mg; 32mg/L Na; 10mg/L SO4; 21mg/L Cl; 150mg/L HCO3 ---
**Author:** ![Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Robertestein05_gmail.com)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/7 "2019-10-15T22:47:27Z")
> [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger. > > I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut. Kunze covers every water  treatment process imaginable.  The only thing not permitted is the use of acid not resulting from microbes native to the barley grain.  This seems a bit absurd when one considers the multitude of unnatural things, for example the sterilization of water with chlorine dioxide or silver ions, that are allowed. ---
**Author:** ![jeffy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jeffy/32/12842_2.png) [@jeffy](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jeffy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/8 "2019-10-16T11:20:25Z")
So, would the consensus be “brown balanced” then? ---
**Author:** ![Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Robertestein05_gmail.com)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:23am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/9 "2019-10-16T11:23:41Z")
I’d say the choice of “balanced” or “full” is one of personal taste.  What are you after? ---
**Author:** ![dmtaylor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/dmtaylor/32/9644_2.png) [@dmtaylor](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/dmtaylor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/10 "2019-10-16T12:08:56Z")
> [@jeffy](#): > > So, would the consensus be “brown balanced” then? That would be my own suggestion.  Consensus?  Probably. ---
**Author:** ![hopfenundmalz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/hopfenundmalz/32/11193_2.png) [@hopfenundmalz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/hopfenundmalz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/11 "2019-10-16T13:30:29Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > > > They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger. > > > > I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut. > > Kunze covers every water  treatment process imaginable.  The only thing not permitted is the use of acid not resulting from microbes native to the barley grain.  This seems a bit absurd when one considers the multitude of unnatural things, for example the sterilization of water with chlorine dioxide or silver ions, that are allowed. Well, if it is in Kunze, it is allowed. Thanks. They also use deoxygenated water via stripping columns, as no SMB is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@Robertestein05\_gmail.com](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Robertestein05_gmail.com)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/12 "2019-10-16T14:02:01Z")
> [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > > > > > They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger. > > > > > > I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut. > > > > Kunze covers every water  treatment process imaginable.  The only thing not permitted is the use of acid not resulting from microbes native to the barley grain.  This seems a bit absurd when one considers the multitude of unnatural things, for example the sterilization of water with chlorine dioxide or silver ions, that are allowed. > > Well, if it is in Kunze, it is allowed. Thanks. > > They also use deoxygenated water via stripping columns, as no SMB is allowed. Yes Kunze makes clear when something is not permitted by German law.  But I find it amusing how often he will go into great detail on how to do something, touting its undeniable benefits, and then, almost with a wink, say that of course we must never do this under the law.  If the Reinheitsgebot is not already one of the most flouted laws in history, German brewers must often wish they could get around it. ---
**Author:** ![mabrungard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/mabrungard/32/12430_2.png) [@mabrungard](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/mabrungard)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/13 "2019-10-17T00:49:26Z")
> [@denny](#): > > Never use a city profile.  There’s no way of knowing what the brewer does with the water.  The color/flavor profiles are the way to go. Well, not really. The thing that historical profiles help illustrate, is the level of flavor ions in the water. In the case of Munich Dunkel, I always use the Munich profile to guide the level of sulfate and chloride, but the levels of Ca, Mg, and HCO3 are largely dependent upon other factors. I have liked the results for my Dunkels when I use the “Add all hardness minerals to the Mash” tool in Bru’n Water. That enables me to target a minimal Ca content of around 40 to 50 ppm in the mash and then that content is diluted when I add the nearly ion-free RO for sparging. ---
**Author:** ![jeffy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jeffy/32/12842_2.png) [@jeffy](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jeffy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/another-dunkel-thread/29199/14 "2019-10-17T12:40:12Z")
> [@mabrungard](#): > > > [@denny](#): > > > > Never use a city profile.  There’s no way of knowing what the brewer does with the water.  The color/flavor profiles are the way to go. > > Well, not really. The thing that historical profiles help illustrate, is the level of flavor ions in the water. In the case of Munich Dunkel, I always use the Munich profile to guide the level of sulfate and chloride, but the levels of Ca, Mg, and HCO3 are largely dependent upon other factors. I have liked the results for my Dunkels when I use the “Add all hardness minerals to the Mash” tool in Bru’n Water. That enables me to target a minimal Ca content of around 40 to 50 ppm in the mash and then that content is diluted when I add the nearly ion-free RO for sparging. You’re saying you don’t want the Ca content more than 40 to 50 ppm? The Brown Balanced has it at 50 while Munich is at 77 and boiled Munich is 12.  I guess the main thing you are telling me is to keep the sulphate and chloride levels very low (18 and 8 respectively in Munich water, 77 and 55 in Brown Balanced). In either case I will most likely build the water from RO.