Beer staling prematurely?

General Homebrew Discussion
1

→ The thing I am looking for advice about is beer flavor stability.

Essentially, a LOT of batches in the past year and a half seem to be having their flavor change…relatively quickly.  The most common comments I have been getting from judges are “cardboard” or “sherry”.  Some of the beers with these comments are only 10 weeks old… I did not used to have this issue, but now it seems to happen frequently.  Once the beer goes a little stale, however, it sees to say stable for at least 6 to 8 months (no beer has lasted past that age so far) Also, other than the notes of sherry/cardboard, the beers, when judged, receive very favorable comments, and no mention of flavors indicating bacterial infections.  (three of the beers in question were sent to NHC and scored 34,37, and 38, and the only negative notes were about the apparent “age” of the beer.

In the past year I have started refrigerating my carbed beer, in hopes of lengthening the time (with minimal improvement, however).

→ OTHER PROCESS NOTES
I presently prime/bottle condition my beer instead of kegging. (Would kegging help the issue?)

I batch sparge, ferment in glass, .put bottles in fridge 1 to 2 weeks after priming when carbonation is achieved.  All transfers are siphoned via boiled tubing. I use Irish Moss in the boil kettle, and that is the only fining.  Yeast is from a yeast starter/liquid yeast.

The one batch I did with extract, was a barley wine, about 6 months ago, did not have this issue. (Too bad, it would not mind it if the barley wine aged a bit fast!) The rest of the process was identical.

Any process recommendations that will increase the shelf life, or am I just expecting too much?

Thanks!

2

IMO kegging will definitely help. The whole “bottle bucket” bottling method is not a very good way to bo9ttle beer. Ironically, having a kegging system is a far better way to bottle beers with nat. carb because you can purge the bottle with Co2.

Another thing I would recommend (though I didn’t see it mentioned) is skip secondary.

3

Wingnut, it sounds like an oxidation issue to my novice ears. Majorvices’ suggestions will minimize movement, but you can also look to how you are siphoning, i.e. is output tube at bottom of container, is flow slowed to minimize turbulence at the start of siphon, etc. Are you moving your carboys any distance? Just wondering if you may be splashing too much. I have to move my fermenters further than I like, so I kill myself trying to move them without splashing out of paranoia. Just some thoughts. I don’t see AG as a likely cause of the issue, probably just a coincidence IMHO.

4

Thanks for the advice… unfortunately, I have already been taking measures with siphoning to be sure the hose is under the beer during transfers, no splashing of beer, minimize agitation of beer… etc.  (That is the kind of stuff I am looking for, however, assuming my experience is not “normal” for un-purged bottling.

If 10 to 14 weeks is normal time to get some oxidation with my method of bottling, then kegging is the next logical step.  If that is not normal, then I am hoping to find out where my process is flawed, and extend the shelf life a bit.

I will keep thinking through the process and see if there are any other changes I can make.

Thanks for the advice!!

5

I agree…set up a kegging system and you have the best of both worlds.  I have bottled some strong beers from keg and they taste fine years down the line (as long as your sanitation is good).
I do secondary all of my beers, but that’s a matter of personal choice (and reflecting confidence in my procedures in that I am not introducing o2 or other contaminants o my beers during secondary and/or bulk aging.

But yes…by all means set up to keg.  You won’t regret it, and you and bottle fully conditioned beer from the kegs.

6

10-14 weeks is definitely not a normal time frame for ‘staling’ to occur. I have plenty of bottles in my brew closet from nearly a year ago (not because I am aging them, but can’t keep up on the drinking/gifting side with my production schedule) with no noticeable signs of going bad.

How are you cooling? Are you cooling in your brew kettle?

7

Based on the sherry and cardboard comments it seems to me like you are having some oxidation issues.  What types of bottles are you using; pry off or twist off?  Twist off is said to allow oxygen in there.  You could also try using oxygen absorbing caps.  Other than that there might be a splashing issue you are just not noticing.

8

The issue is oxidation.  and unless you are intentionally doing something to cause it, it should not be happening that quick.
How are you siphoning?  could you provide as much detail as possible,  everything from specifically what equipment you are using to the exact process you are using.

I had a similar problem that was traced back to an auto-siphon.

Fred

9

What was your problem with the autosiphon?

10

They tend to develop a very small ait leak at the plunger,  I could see what i call a micro bubble bouncing at the high point.  The quality and complexity of my big beers went down (lack of oxidation) when I fixed this.

Fred

11

Yeah, I’ve noticed that as well.  I’m sure it’s introducing some O2 but I’m hoping its minimal.  I usually tap the line until it goes away which only takes a few seconds.

12

Mine didn’t stop, and it did make a difference

13

Thanks everyone for the great feedback.  At the very worst, I have confirmed that the beers in the first three years, that did not have quick staling issues, were not just good luck, and I have a great excuse to step up to kegging!

Below is a lengthy description of the beer transfer process, any constructive advice is greatly welcome!

As far as siphoning goes, in the post fermenting setup… that was the center of my attention this past few months.  I started off using an Auto-siphon, (used this for three years of good beers, and then had 4 batches go south quickly with stale flavors).  After having some issues, I purchased a new Auto-siphon, and had similar issues for two batches.  So I tried new hoses for two more batches (using the new auto-siphon, and fresh pieces of hose for two batches.) When that did not work, I then purchased a stainless steel racking cane and ditched the Auto-siphon completely.

I also purchased some high-temp hosing, and started to boil that for 10 minutes prior to use with the Stainless racking cane.  Using stainless, I can place a hose clamp around the hose and get a good seal on the cane… ensuring that the air bubble that often formed at the top of the cane part of the auto-siphon would not appear.

To prime the hose I first used the method of filling the hose with starsan water and starting the siphon that way.  I found it a bit cumbersome, however, and I eventually found a turkey baster that I sanitized and used to start the siphon.  (Kind of like sucking on the tube, but more sanitary)

As far as moving beer from primary to bottling bucket (no secondary)…  I siphon to a bottling bucket, where I have boiled and still hot sugar/water solution.  I then siphon the beer into the bucket, let it set for 10 minutes to a half hour while I finish getting the bottles ready

To bottle, I start the siphon and after the line if full of beer, I clamp the hose to stop the flow, but keep the line full of beer, and then I insert the bottle filler (non-spring tip type) and clamp that down too.  I then run off 6 to 12 oz and begin bottling.

The bottles are Sam Adams or Bells bottles with crimp caps, all bottles are pop tops, and I have used a variety of caps, but not the O2 adsorbing ones.  (I like to sterilize the caps, and some of the things I have read indicate that the caps lose their O2 adsorbing ability by doing this… but that is just here say)

So as near as I can tell, I am doing the right things on siphoning, and I do not slosh the beer around, so I am at a bit of a loss.

My thoughts presently are to possibly take the plunge and go kegging and buy a better bottle.  Then I can push with CO2 at a very low pressure (plastic better bottle reducing the risk of exploding glass if I screw up) out of the bottle and in to a purged keg.  At the very least that would isolate if the issue is with beer transfer methods, or if the issue lies elsewhere.

I have also been reading up on some fining agents, in the hopes of finding a lower cost fix. PVP appears to be the most promising, but while PVP claims to help reduce the tannins that are part of the staling equation, I suspect it will not cover up what must be a brewer/process  issue.

14

I use the O2 absorbing caps but was wondering about this tonight as I was bottling.  I soak the caps in starsan while I’m bottling and I’ve heard the same thing:  that this may cause the O2 absorbing properties to be less effective.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?

15

I use the O2 absorbing tops too, I can’t say I taste a difference, but they barely cost anything more, so unless you really like colored caps, why not use them for a touch more insurance? Maybe I’m just a sucker, but at a fraction of a penny/bottle, seems like a no brainer to me. I was unaware of the sanitizing issue, good heads up…

16

Just a quick update… it looks like the problem is either with the caps or the capper.

I just capped a batch a few days ago, and I decided to place some balloons over the necks of the capped bottles.  I pulled 12 at random, and 10 of the 12 balloons were inflated slightly.

So… I am blaming a bad capper or bad run of caps on the issues.

17

Well done Sherlock, I can hear the sign of relief through cyberspace. Enjoy!

18

If it’s the caps then you should also see lower carbonation on your previous beers showing age problems. Do you see that?

I guess I don’t understand what’s so hard about syphoning. Put a carboy on a table with the target vessel on the floor, fill a tube with water, hold your thumb over one end, put the other end in the source, hold the thumb end below the open end, then release your thumb. Drain the water into a glass, and then divert to the target when beer starts coming out. Very simple, and it doesn’t shake air into anything. If you want to slow the rate, move the two ends of the tube closer to each other. If you want to stop the flow, raise the outflow end higher.

Kegging will certainly help, and will give you more options. Plus it should save you about 2 hours of screwing around. If you subsequently want to bottle from the keg, save yourself some trouble and get a Blichman Beer Gun. Super gadget.

If you are paranoid about oxygen in headspace in your bottle, blow a little CO2 into the bottle before you cap it, or (do as I do) cap on foam. That’s how commercial bottling lines work.

Kegs do a better job of keeping air out of your beer than bottles; better seals.  Just be sure you don’t have any leaks.  Spray all the joints with a soapy water solution while the keg is under pressure and watch for bubbles.

Definitely store your beer cold if you want to keep it for long periods.  Every 10C difference in temperature doubles the rate of chemical reactions (like oxidation).

19

Gordon’s method of siphon starting brings back memories, but I bought a siphon starter about 10 years ago that is much easier: The racking cane has a gasket/washer on the bottom that fits snugly within a tube approximately 1" in diameter. The bigger tube has a flapper valve on the bottom that allows liquid to enter from the bottom, but prevents it from exiting back out. Take the bigger tube with the racking cane fully inserted and put it into your beer. Then pull up on the racking cane which draws liquid into the tube. Push back down again and the liquid is forced through the racking cane and out the siphon tubing. This is one of those inexpensive “wow” gadgets that makes the process much easier.

I did not see anyone mention hot-side aeration in this thread. That can cause rapid oxidation as well. While oxygen is very desirable when wort is cooled and yeast is being added, it is harmful when the wort is hot. So from the initial dough-in until the wort is cooled, be very careful about splashing when adding water, sparging, stirring, etc. If you are using a pump, watch for cavitation: use a valve past the pump output to partially close and slow down the pump flow.

20

After breaking too many racking canes, I siphon with a carboy cap, a stainless racking cane, and a sterile air filter.  You just blow through the filter to get the sihpon started, and physics takes care of the rest.  You can push it with CO2 too, very gently of course.