# Hitting you mash pH **URL:** \ **Category:** Brewing Processes\ **Created:** [December 15, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876 "2015-12-15T21:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![joeg13](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/joeg13/32/5491_2.png) [@joeg13](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/joeg13)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/1 "2015-12-15T21:27:18Z")
This may be a subjective question, but… Is it best to try to hit your target mash with salts alone and then make your adjustments with acid malt or lactic acid? Or is OK to include an acid addition as part of your initial water treatment? I’ve been doing the latter, trying to keep salt additions as small as possible.  Is one way better than the other and why? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![blatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@blatz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/blatz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/2 "2015-12-15T21:38:26Z")
i use bru’n water, start with RO, and try to achieve the target water profile selected, and then only use lactic or add acid malt if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![jonhughey\_att.net](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jonhughey_att.net/32/6277_2.png) [@jonhughey\_att.net](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jonhughey_att.net)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/3 "2015-12-15T22:14:42Z")
> [@blatz](#): > > i use bru’n water, start with RO, and try to achieve the target water profile selected, and then only use lactic or add acid malt if necessary. Same here. Brunwater + RO helps me make great beer. ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/4 "2015-12-15T22:20:01Z")
> [@joeg13](#): > > This may be a subjective question, but… > > Is it best to try to hit your target mash with salts alone and then make your adjustments with acid malt or lactic acid? > > Or is OK to include an acid addition as part of your initial water treatment? > > I’ve been doing the latter, trying to keep salt additions as small as possible.  Is one way better than the other and why? > > Thanks! I’m with you but depending on style I suppose. The beers I’m brewing today are a slightly hoppier than normal Helles, and a hoppy amber lager. The Helles requires more adjustments because it’s so light in color, but if I tried to do that with salts like gypsum or calcium chloride it would be disgusting. The red beer requires less adjustments but I want more gypsum than in the Helles to bring out the hops. I use calcium chloride or gypsum for two reasons. Add calcium to my low calcium water. Add the desired flavor ions but not too much. Most of my ph is adjusted by lactic acid. Here’s another thing to think about. To lower the ph of a mash that has ten pounds of grain by one ph point, you need about 1.75ml of lactic 88%. To do that with gypsum you would need about 6 grams. If you needed to lower it from 6.5 to 5.5 you would need 60 grams. In my hoppiest beers I use about 6 just for calcium and flavor.  60 would be gross I would think. Its what we refer to as a buttload ---
**Author:** ![brewinhard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@brewinhard](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/brewinhard)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/5 "2015-12-15T22:46:04Z")
[quote=“klickitat jim, post:4, topic:21876, username:klickitat\_jim”] > [@joeg13](#): > > This may be a subjective question, but… > > Is it best to try to hit your target mash with salts alone and then make your adjustments with acid malt or lactic acid? > > Or is OK to include an acid addition as part of your initial water treatment? > > I’ve been doing the latter, trying to keep salt additions as small as possible.  Is one way better than the other and why? > > Thanks! > [/quote > > In my hoppiest beers I use about 6 just for calcium and flavor.  60 would be gross I would think. Its what we refer to as a buttload Using RO water, I too only add lactic acid after adjusting with my salts for flavor additions.  If it is a very light beer, I will add lactic acid as part of the initial water treatment necessary to reach my desired mash pH. And yes,  buttload of mineral additions does not always make for better beer! ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/6 "2015-12-15T23:29:52Z")
[quote=“brewinhard, post:5, topic:21876, username:brewinhard”] > [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > [@joeg13](#): > > > > This may be a subjective question, but… > > > > Is it best to try to hit your target mash with salts alone and then make your adjustments with acid malt or lactic acid? > > > > Or is OK to include an acid addition as part of your initial water treatment? > > > > I’ve been doing the latter, trying to keep salt additions as small as possible.  Is one way better than the other and why? > > > > Thanks! > > [/quote > > > > In my hoppiest beers I use about 6 just for calcium and flavor.  60 would be gross I would think. Its what we refer to as a buttload > > Using RO water, I too only add lactic acid after adjusting with my salts for flavor additions.  If it is a very light beer, I will add lactic acid as part of the initial water treatment necessary to reach my desired mash pH. > > And yes,  buttload of mineral additions does not always make for better beer! Example, I think gypsum is better than calcium chloride for pronouncing hop perception. But… an ounce of hops and an ounce of gypsum is not going to be better than two ounces of hops. I look at it this way.  I need X amount of calcium. I get it by adding gypsum or CaCl. If I need hoppiness I get that by adding hops. If I need acidity (lower ph) I get it by adding acid. ---
**Author:** ![erockrph](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/erockrph/32/13330_2.png) [@erockrph](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/erockrph)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 6:45am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/7 "2015-12-16T06:45:54Z")
I use a water calculator like Brun’water or Brewer’s Friend’s advanced calculator to determine the mineral additions I need to hit the ion profile that I’m targeting for a particular brew. At that point, I use the same calculator to determine how much acid or baking soda I need to hit my mash pH. The calculators get me close enough to where I want to be pretty reliably. Everything goes in my strike water, and I don’t generally muck around with anything after that. ---
**Author:** ![mabrungard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/mabrungard/32/12430_2.png) [@mabrungard](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/mabrungard)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/8 "2015-12-16T14:02:31Z")
I’ve noted a curious pH result in some mashes. The pH can vary by over 0.1 units during the course of a mash. Needless to say that this could be alarming when you are expecting a certain result. However, continued monitoring of the pH during my last several mashes have shown that the pH tends to come back to the targeted value by the end of the mash. In addition, it seems that mash pH tends to self correct to a value closer to 5.4 when the pH is either higher or lower than that value. So my darker mashes in which I’m targeting a pH of 5.5 or more tend to drop their pH throughout the mashing period and paler mashes in which I’m targeting a pH of 5.3 or less tend to rise. The final result typically gets closer to around 5.4. Interesting results that suggest that we should NOT be overly alarmed when a pH reading isn’t exactly where you intended it to be. Don’t go reaching for more acid or alkali when an early reading isn’t where you want it, give it some more time. ---
**Author:** ![factory](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/factory/32/7165_2.png) [@factory](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/factory)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/9 "2015-12-16T14:22:43Z")
> [@mabrungard](#): > > I’ve noted a curious pH result in some mashes. The pH can vary by over 0.1 units during the course of a mash. Needless to say that this could be alarming when you are expecting a certain result. However, continued monitoring of the pH during my last several mashes have shown that the pH tends to come back to the targeted value by the end of the mash. Martin, I noticed this occurring when I recently made an American Stout.  After 10 minutes the pH was 5.6 (my target) and at about 30 minutes it had dropped to 5.5ish.  I didn’t make any adjustments and by the end of the mash (75 minutes as I was doing BIAB) the pH had again increased to 5.6.  This was the first time I had taken measurements throughout the mashing process and I thought it was a bit strange and chalked it up to measurement error on my part.  Interesting to see that it has been noticed by others. ---
**Author:** ![dilluh98](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/dilluh98/32/3437_2.png) [@dilluh98](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/dilluh98)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/10 "2015-12-16T16:36:11Z")
> [@mabrungard](#): > > I’ve noted a curious pH result in some mashes. The pH can vary by over 0.1 units during the course of a mash. Needless to say that this could be alarming when you are expecting a certain result. However, continued monitoring of the pH during my last several mashes have shown that the pH tends to come back to the targeted value by the end of the mash. > > In addition, it seems that mash pH tends to self correct to a value closer to 5.4 when the pH is either higher or lower than that value. So my darker mashes in which I’m targeting a pH of 5.5 or more tend to drop their pH throughout the mashing period and paler mashes in which I’m targeting a pH of 5.3 or less tend to rise. The final result typically gets closer to around 5.4. > > Interesting results that suggest that we should NOT be overly alarmed when a pH reading isn’t exactly where you intended it to be. Don’t go reaching for more acid or alkali when an early reading isn’t where you want it, give it some more time. This is pretty interesting Martin. I’ve seen similar things monitoring mash pH over the course of 60 minutes. I wonder if there are buffering components that are coming in/out of play during the course of conversion that might explain this. ---
**Author:** ![blatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@blatz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/blatz)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/11 "2015-12-16T16:38:42Z")
yes I noticed this on my fest brew weekend before last.  more pH stuff for me to not understand… ---
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/12 "2015-12-16T17:07:10Z")
> [@joeg13](#): > > This may be a subjective question, but… > > Is it best to try to hit your target mash with salts alone and then make your adjustments with acid malt or lactic acid? > > Or is OK to include an acid addition as part of your initial water treatment? > > I’ve been doing the latter, trying to keep salt additions as small as possible.  Is one way better than the other and why? > > Thanks! I start by getting the salts I want for flavor set, then look at how they affect the pH.  Then I use lactic (or make pickling lime) to get the pH where I want it. ---
**Author:** ![PORTERHAUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@PORTERHAUS](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/PORTERHAUS)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/13 "2015-12-16T18:30:27Z")
I don’t use any salts much for most of my brewing. I like the flavor profile I get with most of my beers so I rely on acid to lower my ph and at times baking soda to raise the ph for dark beers with a lot of roast malt. With the Baking soda I’m also adding some sodium which might help bring out some malt character. It’s hard to modify mash ph alone with salts so I agree “season” the mash/boil for the effect you are seaking for the beer and then adjust with acid. ---
**Author:** ![jonhughey\_att.net](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jonhughey_att.net/32/6277_2.png) [@jonhughey\_att.net](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jonhughey_att.net)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/14 "2015-12-16T18:33:40Z")
> [@denny](#): > > I start by getting the salts I want for flavor set, then look at how they affect the pH.  Then I use lactic (or make pickling lime) to get the pH where I want it. Same thing I do, except for using baking soda to raise. ---
**Author:** ![joeg13](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/joeg13/32/5491_2.png) [@joeg13](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/joeg13)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/15 "2015-12-16T19:37:24Z")
Thanks.  Seems like I’m on the right track then.  Are there any styles were I might want to go with something a bit more minerally rather than the minimalistic approach? ---
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/16 "2015-12-16T20:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@denny](#): > > > > I start by getting the salts I want for flavor set, then look at how they affect the pH.  Then I use lactic (or make pickling lime) to get the pH where I want it. > > Same thing I do, except for using baking soda to raise. Yeah, sometimes I use baking soda, too.  Kinda depends on the particular beer. ---
**Author:** ![charles1968](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@charles1968](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/charles1968)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/17 "2015-12-16T23:23:15Z")
> [@joeg13](#): > > This may be a subjective question, but… > > Is it best to try to hit your target mash with salts alone and then make your adjustments with acid malt or lactic acid? > > Or is OK to include an acid addition as part of your initial water treatment? > > I’ve been doing the latter, trying to keep salt additions as small as possible.  Is one way better than the other and why? > > Thanks! I don’t think one is better than the other. I pretty much agree with nearly everything else on the thread. Use a water calculator like BruNWater or Brewersfriend. I find Brewersfriend better as it’s all calculated online and it allows me to input CRS (carbonate reducing solution) additions, which is basically a blend of acids that I use instead of lactic acid. Figure out what water profile you’re aiming for first. See if you can get in the right ball park with your tap water and mix of gypsum, calcium chloride and acid (or chalk if you’re water is too soft rather than too hard). You’ll need to know the relevant ion levels in your tapwater though - finding that out can be a challenge in itself. My water is so bad that I have to dilute it with bottled soft water, but fortunately that’s very cheap. I can input the secondary water source on Brewersfriend. Then it’s just a juggling act, playing with different levels of salt and acid until I’m close to my target water profile and close to my mash pH without getting any red flags for excessive bitterness, saltiness etc. I can’t do it with just gypsum or just acid - I tend to need a bit of everything. Often I have to do a bit of compromising to avoid buying too much soft water. It’s fun when you get the hang of it. One thing you might need to measure first is the alkalinity of your tap water. That’s a proxy for level of bicarbonate, which buffers acidity and so stops pH dropping as low as it should. you can measure it with this kit: [http://www.amazon.com/Salifert-Carbonate-Hardness-Alkalinity-100-200/dp/B001EJ3DOG/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450308349&sr=8-1&keywords=salifert+alkalinity+test+kit](http://www.amazon.com/Salifert-Carbonate-Hardness-Alkalinity-100-200/dp/B001EJ3DOG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450308349&sr=8-1&keywords=salifert+alkalinity+test+kit) ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/18 "2015-12-17T01:09:46Z")
> [@mabrungard](#): > > I’ve noted a curious pH result in some mashes. The pH can vary by over 0.1 units during the course of a mash. Needless to say that this could be alarming when you are expecting a certain result. However, continued monitoring of the pH during my last several mashes have shown that the pH tends to come back to the targeted value by the end of the mash. > > In addition, it seems that mash pH tends to self correct to a value closer to 5.4 when the pH is either higher or lower than that value. So my darker mashes in which I’m targeting a pH of 5.5 or more tend to drop their pH throughout the mashing period and paler mashes in which I’m targeting a pH of 5.3 or less tend to rise. The final result typically gets closer to around 5.4. > > Interesting results that suggest that we should NOT be overly alarmed when a pH reading isn’t exactly where you intended it to be. Don’t go reaching for more acid or alkali when an early reading isn’t where you want it, give it some more time. That shouldn’t be too much of a surprise since from mash in through to the kettle the composition of the wort is constantly changing. Seems like we could expect the ph to fluctuate a little. Fully agree with you on not chasing the ph around with salts and acid. ---
**Author:** ![joeg13](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/joeg13/32/5491_2.png) [@joeg13](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/joeg13)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/19 "2015-12-17T02:51:39Z")
I’ve heard recommendations for Brun’water and Brewer’s Friend’s advanced calculator. Anyone EZ Water Calculator?  I find that one the easiest. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876/20 "2015-12-17T02:53:46Z")
Bru’n water all the way, every time. [Next page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/hitting-you-mash-ph/21876.md?page=2)