Is anyone on the forum familiar with this ester and its formation in beer?
I recently brewed a Helles that had a significant corny DMS aroma and flavor when it was young. Through lagering, that corn has been replaced with a light concord grape flavor and aroma. I’m curious if that genesis was via the DMS?
I’ve noted that this grape ester shows up more often in German lager styles, but I’m not sure why. Maybe because they tend to be malt focused and not hop focused?
I wonder if it’s more a pilsner malt thing than strictly a lager thing, Martin. I’ve noticed it occasionally even in beers like cream ale that get some pils malt. I only notice it now and then and it’s subtle, but I’ve only noticed it when using pils malt in lager or ale.
Well, its interesting that Pils may be the cause of this. Maybe it has something to do with the SMM or the subsequent DMS. I had not made the correlation with lightly kilned malt previously.
I don’t have any experiments or specific data to back it up, Martin. But I’ve never encountered it when not using Pils. Don’t notice it often even then.
Isnt this the grape-lollipop ester that S Cerv. talks about in some British strains?
This might be what I am getting in my Maibock. I described it on another thread as the flavor I used to get as a kid with those paper straw sugar candies. I thought I got it from the S-189 yeast, but it certainly could have come from the pilsner malt. The recipe had 67% pilsner malt.
I don’t know if this is the same one. Methyl anthranilate is the flavoring in grape Koolaid. There’s not a lot of info about this ester’s presence in beer, at least within the limits of my Google-fu. Anthranilic acid is a precursor of amino acids, so I’d guess that this is coming from the malt. There’s no sulfur in it, so it’s hard to picture the chemistry of how DMS could form it.
I couldn’t begin to guess at the mechanism forming it, it just seems that sometimes I get a touch when I use pils. Not even maltster specific that I’ve seen. I’ve used all the major maltsters’ pils (including Belgian) and no one brand seems to produce this consistently. And I could be wrong, though it does seem to correlate with pils. Maybe (like with hops) it’s a perception thing - what I perceive as a light grape note someone else might get as just light malty sweetness.
So, do you suppose this is a mash, boil, or fermentation thing causing this flaw? I’ve gotten what someone in my brew club described as sweet kettle corn in some lighter lagers before with mostly pils malt. They said it wasn’t DMS though. I attributed most of this to fermentation and underpitching/fermenting too warm. But perhaps it was really the same thing as being described here. It’s a sweetness that I can’t quite put my finger on what it tastes like. It crops up once in a while. I think since I started acidifying my boil it has gone away though. Knock on wood…
I associate grape with Munich I malt heavy beers. Traditional Bocks for example. If it from the malt or a compound that the yeast produce from malt is something I can’t answer.
And I’ve especially noticed it when using Munich in my helles beers. So there could be something to that as well.
Martin by chance did the recipe include any CaraPils?
have one on tap right now that has some of that. never had the corny DMS aroma or flavor though. just a light hint on concord grape. that same yeast (830) was used on a marzen before it and a Vienna after the helles, and neither of those have the grape ester at a detectable level.
This is exactly what I was thinking. In fact I cut the Munich malt with pilsner malt to avoid that grape character.
Paul, Munich light will give you hints of grape flavor.
I’ve experienced significant cherry esters with beers heavy on Munich and CaraMunch. Cutting back on the CaraMunich has reduced this for me but I don’t pretend that I fully understand what happened and would like to experiment more.
I’m wondering if there’s something similar in the Pils/CaraPils family that lends grape rather than cherry esters.
I realize I’m way out in speculation-land here, but it strikes me that the kilning temperature and process could lend certain precursors in the wort that then produce elevated levels of these esters during fermentation.
Per the last blog post, that is ethyl heptanoate.
I get grape and candy from pils malt. particularly german pils malt. not noticed a relation to DMS though.
I’ve just been alerted that methyl anthranilate is more typically found in wine and ethyl heptanoate is more typically the source of the grape ester in beer. So, let’s consider my concern is with ethyl heptanoate!
This suggests it’s a fatty acid ester and that it will dissipate with time. Still no hint at the source, but this is fun so I’ll keep digging: