# Pils-friendly Water chemistry **URL:** \ **Category:** General Homebrew Discussion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526 "2010-10-14T02:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![roguejim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b5ac83/32.png) [@roguejim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/roguejim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/1 "2010-10-14T02:05:08Z")
If you wanted to make this water more suitable to a German Pils, what would you do for a 7gal batch? Na…8 K…\<1 Ca…17 Mg…6 Total Hardness…68 NO3-N…1.3 S04-S…\<1 Cl…2 C03…\<1 HC03…93 Total Alkalinity…77 ---
**Author:** ![hopfenundmalz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/hopfenundmalz/32/11193_2.png) [@hopfenundmalz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/hopfenundmalz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/2 "2010-10-14T02:54:41Z")
I would increase the Ca and cut the HCO3. Maybe use some RO water to drop the HCO3 and some CaCl2 and Gypsum to raise the Ca. I used RO water and salts to make a profile like this, and it worked really well for a crisp N German Pils. [http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various\_water\_recipes#Pilsner\_water](http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes#Pilsner_water) ---
**Author:** ![a10t2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/a10t2/32/6257_2.png) [@a10t2](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/a10t2)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/3 "2010-10-14T03:03:08Z")
I’d dilute 50-50, then add equal parts CaSO4 and CaCl2 to get the calcium back up to 50 ppm. ~0.3 g/gal each should be about right. ---
**Author:** ![tschmidlin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tschmidlin/32/3857_2.png) [@tschmidlin](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/tschmidlin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/4 "2010-10-14T05:23:26Z")
I’m going to have to disagree.  For a _German_ pils, that much carbonate is not at all out of line.  I would add calcium sulfate to get you up to 50-150 ppm Ca (depending on how much SO4 you want), but nothing else.  Make that beer first, then decide how you want to tweak the recipe and/or water.  YMMV ---
**Author:** ![roguejim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b5ac83/32.png) [@roguejim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/roguejim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/5 "2010-10-14T07:13:39Z")
On my judges scoresheet, under Overall Impression: “Tightly made example.  **A bit less sweetness by using a touch of sulfate of chloride** may help…I prefer drier examples like Trumer…” ---
**Author:** ![tschmidlin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tschmidlin/32/3857_2.png) [@tschmidlin](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/tschmidlin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/6 "2010-10-14T07:29:56Z")
> [@roguejim](#): > > On my judges scoresheet, under Overall Impression: > > “Tightly made example.   **A bit less sweetness by using a touch of sulfate of chloride** may help…I prefer drier examples like Trumer…” Pretty sure that should say “_ **or** _ chloride”, but adding chloride tends to increase the perception of sweetness - so if you’re looking to please this judge then you should add CaSO4 to add to the perception of dryness. Have you gotten similar feedback from other judges?  And what do _you_ think of it? ---
**Author:** ![blatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@blatz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/blatz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/7 "2010-10-14T13:48:14Z")
> [@tschmidlin](#): > > I’m going to have to disagree.  For a _German_ pils, that much carbonate is not at all out of line.  I would add calcium sulfate to get you up to 50-150 ppm Ca (depending on how much SO4 you want), but nothing else.  Make that beer first, then decide how you want to tweak the recipe and/or water.  YMMV +1 to a T. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/8 "2010-10-14T14:35:50Z")
I agree that you want to add some sulfate and chloride to the water.  With that much bicarbonate, you might also want to add some acid malt (2%-3% of the grist) to bring the pH down. More info: [http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various\_water\_recipes](http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes) ---
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/9 "2010-10-14T15:14:38Z")
> [@tschmidlin](#): > > Have you gotten similar feedback from other judges?  And what do _you_ think of it? I know Jim, and he’s only gotten feedback from one judge.  I agree with you, Tom, I wouldn’t make any big changes based on this single comment.  I advised him to try a couple different things and compare the results based on his own tastes. ---
**Author:** ![tschmidlin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tschmidlin/32/3857_2.png) [@tschmidlin](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/tschmidlin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/10 "2010-10-14T19:00:53Z")
> [@denny](#): > > I agree with you, Tom Wait, let me change my answer . . .  ;D ---
**Author:** ![kit\_b](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/kit_b/32/13535_2.png) [@kit\_b](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/kit_b)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/11 "2010-10-14T19:25:54Z")
Add calcium, sulfate & chloride. You’ve nearly got a good pilsner water. Make sure to keep that magnesium down where it is. Try to keep a nice balance between the sulfate & chloride. ---
**Author:** ![roguejim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b5ac83/32.png) [@roguejim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/roguejim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/12 "2010-10-14T20:33:21Z")
> [@tschmidlin](#): > > > [@roguejim](#): > > > > On my judges scoresheet, under Overall Impression: > > > > “Tightly made example.   **A bit less sweetness by using a touch of sulfate of chloride** may help…I prefer drier examples like Trumer…” > > Pretty sure that should say “_ **or** _ chloride”, but adding chloride tends to increase the perception of sweetness - so if you’re looking to please this judge then you should add CaSO4 to add to the perception of dryness. > > Have you gotten similar feedback from other judges?  And what do _you_ think of it? Having had a Trumer yesterday, my pils is too sweet, at least for my tastes. Here is the grain bill that was based on an NHC recipe from the Jamil Show. **Batch Size (Gal):        12.00**    Wort Size (Gal):  12.00 Total Grain (Lbs):      19.38 Anticipated OG:          1.048    Plato:            11.80 Anticipated SRM:          3.8 Anticipated IBU:          44.5 Brewhouse Efficiency:      80 % Wort Boil Time:            60    Minutes ## Pre-Boil Amounts Evaporation Rate:      2.00    Gallons Per Hour Pre-Boil Wort Size:  14.00    Gal Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.041    SG          10.17  Plato Grain/Extract/Sugar ## %    Amount    Name                          Origin        Potential SRM 85.2    16.50 lbs. Pilsener                      Belgium        1.037      2   9.7    1.88 lbs. Munich Malt                  Germany        1.037      8   5.2    1.00 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt                      1.033      2 ---
**Author:** ![tschmidlin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tschmidlin/32/3857_2.png) [@tschmidlin](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/tschmidlin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/13 "2010-10-14T21:16:21Z")
If it’s too sweet, you have a number of options.  Add some CaSO4, based on your water I think it’ll be a good thing.  Drop your mash temp, that will help it dry out.  Cut the carapils a bit. Any of those things will help lower the perception of sweetness, but if you’re trying to dial it in I’d change one thing at a time. Let us know how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![roguejim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b5ac83/32.png) [@roguejim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/roguejim)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/14 "2010-10-15T00:33:27Z")
Thanks. I’m considering dropping the carapils altogether. I’m currently mashing at 148F, for 90mins.  Maybe drop the mash temp to 146F? How much gypsum would you add for a 7gal batch? I’m not saying I’ll be making all of these changes all at once.  Just getting all of my options before me. ---
**Author:** ![tschmidlin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tschmidlin/32/3857_2.png) [@tschmidlin](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/tschmidlin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/15 "2010-10-15T03:28:12Z")
I would not go below 148F.  At this point, I’d say cut the carapils to 3%. For the sulfate, it’s your call.  You want the Ca in the mash to be between 50 and 150 ppm.  If you go for the high end of that you’re looking at 2.2 grams per gallon of mash water.  That gives you ~325 ppm of SO4 in the mash, but that’s not important - if you don’t treat your sparge water that number will come back down. I wouldn’t go for it all at once though, I would start with 1 gram per gallon and reduce the carapils and see how it turns out.  But that’s me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![roguejim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b5ac83/32.png) [@roguejim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/roguejim)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/16 "2010-10-15T04:23:48Z")
Thanks again. The few times that I’ve added gypsum to an IPA, it’s been directly into the boil kettle.  I guess in the case of the pils ,SO4 goes into the mash tun… ---
**Author:** ![tschmidlin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tschmidlin/32/3857_2.png) [@tschmidlin](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/tschmidlin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/17 "2010-10-15T04:25:47Z")
With your water, I’d be adding calcium to the mash every time.  I know I would, because my calcium levels are as low as yours.  Which calcium salt I add depends on the recipe, but I go up to at least 50 ppm in the mash just to aid conversion. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/18 "2010-10-15T15:28:59Z")
> [@tschmidlin](#): > > > [@denny](#): > > > > I agree with you, Tom > > Wait, let me change my answer . . .  ;D OUCH!! ---
**Author:** ![bluesman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@bluesman](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/bluesman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/19 "2010-10-15T16:46:23Z")
Here’s a thread of interest. [http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=1812.0](http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=1812.0) …and a small power point that might help. [www.jedflight.com/jrhb/water.ppt](http://www.jedflight.com/jrhb/water.ppt) ---
**Author:** ![1vertical](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/1vertical/32/740_2.png) [@1vertical](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/1vertical)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526/20 "2010-10-22T14:20:56Z")
I somehow feel like a  water chemistry challenged entity that lives in a high mountain desert. I posted my water report under that heading recently and would like to understand how to better modify this water (thanks tom for the input over there) But you fellas all are going on about how to modify your water with so many ppm of this salt or that salt and I gotta ask do you all have a water chem lab in your kitchen?  How in the world are these exacting levels of minerals determined and or implemented to change your water chem?  I was following some of Kai’s literature and gleaned the method to ad the chalk under carbonation to some water to dissolve it…but the additions that are mentioned in this thread leave me in the dust… ??? I mean, I can get 10 gallons of RO water…then add some of my water back to the mix, but to understand what the resulting chemistry of that mix will be is highly challenging to my understanding of what I have actually arrived at [Next page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/pils-friendly-water-chemistry/3526.md?page=2)