I was reading the latest Zymurgy and was perusing the above recipe.
In the directions it states to whirlpool settle for 1 hour-covered?
I’m not questioning the hour but the covered part. Is there not a concern of DMS redeveloping over this time? Especially with 12.8lbs of Pils malt?
I always hopstand with the lid on, but I don’t typically use Pils for a ‘hopstanded’ beer, except for IPL. But as long as you keep a good steady boil for 90 minutes to drive off the DMS I think you’d be fine. My understanding was always that it gets driven off during a long boil and that you don’t rely on the post boil phase to remove more.
EDIT - Actually,the last time I brewed an IPL was ~ 3 years ago, since I only recently was able to replace my lagering fridge. At that time I wasn’t hopstanding yet, so I don’t have direct experience with hopstanding all Pils beers. I still think you’d be ok with a good, long boil.
Interesting, I know about the long boil doing a good job of driving off the DMS but was always under the impression that there is the potential to redevelop without a quick chill, I just thought covering would increase the potential, hmmm, the things that keep me awake at night…
Like I say, without direct experience, I could be wrong. There’s always the option to sub in a good hopstand-friendly 2-row and not have to worry though.
Please post the recipe. LaCumbre has it on their blog, but it’s for 30bbls.
Zymurgy shows it as a 1.070 OG IPA, Canadian Superior Pils malt as ~ 90% of the grist (Vienna, 30L crystal make up the rest), 1056, IBUS not posted as the ‘Project’ uses an ever changing hop lineup, all per La Cumbre. Very hoppy beers (read:good). As I figured, boil time is 90 minutes.
From their blog:
1045 lbs. Canadian Superior Pils
55 lbs. Durst Vienna
27.5 lbs. Bairds Carastan
Mashed at 151 with water treated with 2 lbs. CaCl, and 500 mls Phosphoric Acid.
90 minute boil.
Also, each batch so far has started with 600 gms CO2 extract added at the beginning of the boil for a VERY large amount of bitterness. I could go into my reasons for utilizing this secondary hop product but its lengthy and I have addressed it in past blogs.
What follows are the hops used in each batch so far with their corresponding release date.
1/10/14:
Columbus @30
Southern Passion (formerly known as US 478) @10
Southern Passion, Mosaic, and Nelson Sauvin @ Whirlpool
Simcoe, Mosaic, Southern Passion, Nelson Sauvin, Citra, H17 in the dry hop.
This beer was dry-hopped 7 days after fermentation at 68F. On the 2nd and 3rd days, it was recirculated. On the 4th and 5th days, hops were dumped. It was crashed on the 5th day and was transferred on the 7th day after dry-hopping.
1/16/14
Columbus @30
Southern Passion (formerly known as US 478) @15
Southern Passion, Mosaic, and Citra @ Whirlpool
Mosaic, Southern Passion, Nelson Sauvin, Citra in the dry hop.
This beer was dry-hopped 7 days after fermentation at 66F. On the 3rd and 4th days, it was recirculated. On the 4th day hops were dumped. It was crashed on the 4th day and was transferred on the 5th day after dry-hopping with finings.
1/31/14 (This beer will be released tomorrow.) ALL AMERICAN FILTERED DANKNESS
Columbus @30
Chinook @15
Chinook and Simcoe @ Whirlpool
Chinook, Simcoe, Mosaic, Citra in the dry hop.
This beer was dry-hopped 7 days after fermentation at 66F. On the 3rd and 4th days, it was recirculated. On the 4th, 5th and 6th days hops were dumped. It was crashed on the 5th day and was filtered (3 micron nominal) on the 7th day after dry-hopping.
definitely! I was just curious if anyone else caught this and questioned it as well or had other thoughts about their process
The idea is to add so much dankness that it overcomes any potential DMS issues.
I guess I need to make a hopstanded IPL with Pils, to see for myself if a hard 90 minute boil will let me hopstand with no ill effects. I remember there was a school of thought when I started using hop stands that even a domestic grist would leave DMS in your beer due to the delayed cooling. Obviously not so. So the question is does a DMS producer like Pils have more of a risk ? We’ll see. A good excuse to experiment 
I’ve never heard that and since DMS doesn’t go away and usually gets worse while hop character fades, that sounds curious to me, not saying your wrong, I’ve just never heard that or seen it explained that way.
FWIW, I don’t believe that. La Cumbre is a great brewery and if they are selling that beer commercially and giving us the recipe, I have to believe that perceptible levels of DMS are not in the beer.
EDIT - Makes me think of Rolling Rock, a true DMS bomb. It would take a helluva lot of hops to try to cover up the DMS there, and probably still not work.
not sure it’s worth wasting a potentially good beer:) I’m all for experimenting but like to go in a positive direction!
I hear ya, but I’m assuming La Cumbre isn’t putting out a DMS bomb ! You never know though.
I would think not, especially a recipe being shared in Zymurgy
Glad to know that i wasnt the only one thinking that because i do hop stands/Whirlpooling on my Pilsners but not that long. I know i am sounding like a broken record but from what i know a 90 min boil is sufficient enough to break down the Amino acid SMM to DMS however, hot wort stands/whirlpooling at temps above 150F i think SMM is still converted to DMS and there is no boil to drive it off. I dont even think i would do a “stand” that long covered or not with pilsner malt. Both Gordon Strong and Charley Bamforth have stated in there literature that long whirpooling and extended time before chilling can create DMS. I do wonder if the style of beer with the dankness will aid in covering up the possible DMS in the finished beer?
I have an IPA on tap that was 30% Pils. I boiled for 60 minutes and did a 30 minute hop stand before I chilled. I recirculated and did not fully cover. I had no lid for 10 minutes or so then I put the lid on Partially (I have an IC chiller). The beer is top notch!p
That was the conventional wisdom I mentioned when I started hopstanding. It’s either a theoretical ‘fact’ like HSA or else the DMS does form but below perceptible levels, because I (and several others here) have done a lot of whirlpool hopping/hop standing over the last couple years and found no DMS in my final beers. I don’t like DMS (and by extension, Rolling Rock) so if this were happening in reality I’d have stopped hopping this way.
This is where my understanding lies as well and while I also do hop stands, even some with grain bills containing pils I don’t usually cover, nor approach anything close to an hour.
Any recipe over 50% pils gets an 90 minute boil and those with less typically 60 minutes.
Can’t stand DMS either so for me anything that can account for that issue is eliminated from my process.
If hop stands led to significant amounts of DMS, then I would expect it to be an issue regardless of whether you covered your kettle. Since your wort isn’t boiling, there’s nothing going on that would really drive off the DMS even if you left your lid off.
I did a lid-on hop stand on my recent Bo Pils starting at 180F for an hour. Didn’t notice any DMS at all in the finished beer, FWIW.