# Recipe critique. **URL:** \ **Category:** Beer Recipes\ **Created:** [October 2, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330 "2017-10-02T23:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/21 "2017-10-06T16:34:13Z")
> [@JJeffers09](#): > > Yes, if it’s 300:100 or 150:50 so4/cl IIRC produce indistinguishable beers. > > I think a stout stands up to minerally water very well.  My .02 cents. > > Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk That has not been my experience.  I fond that the absolute values are more important than the ratio. ---
**Author:** ![stpug](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/stpug/32/6766_2.png) [@stpug](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/stpug)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/22 "2017-10-06T16:56:44Z")
> [@denny](#): > > > [@JJeffers09](#): > > > > Yes, if it’s 300:100 or 150:50 so4/cl IIRC produce indistinguishable beers. > > That has not been my experience.  I fond that the absolute values are more important than the ratio. 100% agree with Denny. Forget ratios, focus on concentrations.  A ratio is just a byproduct of the concentration anyway.  While the example in quotes above actually uses the concentration values, they are technically both 3:1 ratios but will produce significant differences in the final beer. As for how chloride and sulfate will affect your perception of the beer, it’s not about sweetness vs bitterness.  It’s more along the lines of fullness vs dryness.  Chloride does not make a beer sweeter, however it does increase a perception of a fuller (bodied) beer, and since it doesn’t enhance the dryness then it may be perceived as “less dry” which folks might construe as “more sweet”.  A similar but opposite thing happens with sulfate where it enhances a dry finish which has the potential to increase perceived bitterness, and in turn reduce perceived sweetness (but that takes decently elevated levels in my experience).  Some similar but different explanations can be said of sodium and magnesium as well in regards to perception of enhancing flavors and increasing minerality and/or bitterness.  And, no, reduction of sulfate/chloride to low (but reasonable) levels does not make a bland beer or increase blandness. ---
**Author:** ![dmtaylor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/dmtaylor/32/9644_2.png) [@dmtaylor](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/dmtaylor)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/23 "2017-10-06T17:01:18Z")
> [@stpug](#): > > And, no, reduction of sulfate/chloride to low (but reasonable) levels does not make a bland beer or increase blandness. I misspoke slightly previously.  Thanks for cleaning this up.  I totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![curtdogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d9b06d/32.png) [@curtdogg](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/curtdogg)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/24 "2017-10-09T03:46:55Z")
> [@stpug](#): > > > [@denny](#): > > > > > [@JJeffers09](#): > > > > > > Yes, if it’s 300:100 or 150:50 so4/cl IIRC produce indistinguishable beers. > > > > That has not been my experience.  I fond that the absolute values are more important than the ratio. > > 100% agree with Denny. Forget ratios, focus on concentrations.  A ratio is just a byproduct of the concentration anyway.  While the example in quotes above actually uses the concentration values, they are technically both 3:1 ratios but will produce significant differences in the final beer. > > As for how chloride and sulfate will affect your perception of the beer, it’s not about sweetness vs bitterness.  It’s more along the lines of fullness vs dryness.  Chloride does not make a beer sweeter, however it does increase a perception of a fuller (bodied) beer, and since it doesn’t enhance the dryness then it may be perceived as “less dry” which folks might construe as “more sweet”.  A similar but opposite thing happens with sulfate where it enhances a dry finish which has the potential to increase perceived bitterness, and in turn reduce perceived sweetness (but that takes decently elevated levels in my experience).  Some similar but different explanations can be said of sodium and magnesium as well in regards to perception of enhancing flavors and increasing minerality and/or bitterness.  And, no, reduction of sulfate/chloride to low (but reasonable) levels does not make a bland beer or increase blandness. Thanks for your input. Ive been reading alot about this lately and my understanding is exactly how you explained it above. I have made a minerally overly smokey stout before, and i want to avoid that again. I think my biggest mistake last time was a mash pH of 5.2, I believe that is what caused the  smoky ashy flavor. With that said,  this time around I will be using a higher pH 5.5-5.6 and going with what i feel is a “ratio” that will help enhance both body and a dry finish. 80s04/60Calchl ppm. Please share your thoughts if you have any. ---
**Author:** ![jonhughey\_att.net](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jonhughey_att.net/32/6277_2.png) [@jonhughey\_att.net](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jonhughey_att.net)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/25 "2017-10-09T12:07:58Z")
> [@stpug](#): > > > [@denny](#): > > > > > [@JJeffers09](#): > > > > > > Yes, if it’s 300:100 or 150:50 so4/cl IIRC produce indistinguishable beers. > > > > That has not been my experience.  I fond that the absolute values are more important than the ratio. > > 100% agree with Denny. Forget ratios, focus on concentrations.  A ratio is just a byproduct of the concentration anyway.  While the example in quotes above actually uses the concentration values, they are technically both 3:1 ratios but will produce significant differences in the final beer. > > As for how chloride and sulfate will affect your perception of the beer, it’s not about sweetness vs bitterness.  It’s more along the lines of fullness vs dryness.  Chloride does not make a beer sweeter, however it does increase a perception of a fuller (bodied) beer, and since it doesn’t enhance the dryness then it may be perceived as “less dry” which folks might construe as “more sweet”.  A similar but opposite thing happens with sulfate where it enhances a dry finish which has the potential to increase perceived bitterness, and in turn reduce perceived sweetness (but that takes decently elevated levels in my experience).  Some similar but different explanations can be said of sodium and magnesium as well in regards to perception of enhancing flavors and increasing minerality and/or bitterness.  And, no, reduction of sulfate/chloride to low (but reasonable) levels does not make a bland beer or increase blandness. Totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![joelv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@joelv](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/joelv)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/26 "2017-10-09T19:38:34Z")
I just brewed a variation of this about two months ago. RO water 2.5 grams Gypsum 3 grams calcium chloride 8 grams baking soda (all in mash) I had about 22 lbs. of fermentables in the mash with 2.5 being highly roasted and 1.5 total crystal (some 40, some 90, some 120) ---
**Author:** ![curtdogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d9b06d/32.png) [@curtdogg](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/curtdogg)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/27 "2017-10-10T02:02:03Z")
> [@joelv](#): > > I just brewed a variation of this about two months ago. > RO water > 2.5 grams Gypsum > 3 grams calcium chloride > 8 grams baking soda (all in mash) > > I had about 22 lbs. of fermentables in the mash with 2.5 being highly roasted and 1.5 total crystal (some 40, some 90, some 120) > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 8 grams holy schnikey. What was your mash pH? ---
**Author:** ![JJeffers09](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jjeffers09/32/11256_2.png) [@JJeffers09](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/JJeffers09)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 2:06am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/28 "2017-10-10T02:06:49Z")
> [@curtdogg](#): > > > [@joelv](#): > > > > I just brewed a variation of this about two months ago. > > RO water > > 2.5 grams Gypsum > > 3 grams calcium chloride > > 8 grams baking soda (all in mash) > > > > I had about 22 lbs. of fermentables in the mash with 2.5 being highly roasted and 1.5 total crystal (some 40, some 90, some 120) > > > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk > > 8 grams holy schnikey. What was your mash pH? > > Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk I was thinking the same thing, probably 5.7-8 target? With what 2#+ of roasted malt?! ---
**Author:** ![joelv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@joelv](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/joelv)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330/29 "2017-12-13T20:45:05Z")
> [@JJeffers09](#): > > > [@curtdogg](#): > > > > > [@joelv](#): > > > > > > I just brewed a variation of this about two months ago. > > > RO water > > > 2.5 grams Gypsum > > > 3 grams calcium chloride > > > 8 grams baking soda (all in mash) > > > > > > I had about 22 lbs. of fermentables in the mash with 2.5 being highly roasted and 1.5 total crystal (some 40, some 90, some 120) > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk > > > > 8 grams holy schnikey. What was your mash pH? > > > > Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk > > I was thinking the same thing, probably 5.7-8 target? With what 2#+ of roasted malt?! > > Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk Geez… I never replied (sorry). The roasted malts were: 1 lb chocolate 3/4 lb roasted barley 1/2 debittered Black. [Previous page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/recipe-critique/26330.md?page=1)