Being a Saison fan I like to try making one or two every summer. My palate loves the phenolics spice character that the Saison Yeasts produce. When I try to obtain information on a fermentation profile for a Saison yeast that favors the phenolics spice character, I just get confused with conflicting information scoured from posts, recipes, books, blogs, podcasts, … At one point I was convinced that high fermentation temps (80-90) would result in phenolics spice character dominating the flavor profile, then lower temps, then ‘start it low and let it go’ and so on. My own results have been a bit frustrating since I can never seem to get the phenolic spice character profile I am after. The grain bill is always dominated by pilsner malt and table sugar, with a bit of Caravienne or other low L crystal, and some flaked barley. Mash temps are always in the 140’s and the FG is always in the mid single digits, or a few lower. I typically reach for 3711, WLP590, or occasionally Lallemand Farmhouse.
SO, is there a general rule for the Saison yeasts when it comes to driving phenolics spice character? According to BLAM the Belgian strains all favor phenolics spice character at the low end, but that is not a book about Saison, which seem to be the opposite? Any advice would be appreciated.
I make a lot of saison, and only use WY 3726 now. Phenolic is a hard word to describe, i like “earthy and spice” flavours in my saison, but i find 3726 does not give clove or pepper flavours ( which is a good thing to my taste ) if that counts as phenolic? I think if i fermented lower at the start ( 16c? ) it might be more spicy, but can’t be sure
I start at 20c and ramp up over days to high 20’s. Mine are quite similar, always pils base, but i like malted spelt to 25-30% and long low mash temps for low FG. Only goes into champagne bottles because i like them highly carbed.
I think of hefeweizen when i think phenolic, and i don’t really like them at all, hope this helps
Yes it’s the spicy character that I am after. Sorry if I am using the wrong terminology. The spicy character like a Dupont, or in my neck of the woods, Oxbow makes several with nice spicy character. I’m not trying to achieve the clove character of a Hefe, which I also can never hit. I’m thinking it has to be my fermentation profile since I don’t perceive infection or off flavors.
Click my sheet below, select an applicable yeast by doing a Ctrl-F “find” function searching for “pepper” – any of those should work (besides perhaps the Bavarian Wheat which also throws banana) – then underpitch, and ferment at about 65-68 F. You’ll get your “spice”.
It ALSO helps a TON to use traditional noble hops such as Spalt, Hallertau, Tettnang, Perle. If you’re not bittering with those hops, then you’re missing out!
Thanks Denny, that could be one of my big mistakes. I am going for something along the lines of Dupont, the Alchemist puts out a great one IMHO called Farmer’s Daughter, and Oxbow has several such as Grizacca (I know this last one is very regional).
Thanks guys I am using mostly EKG and Styrian. On occasion I have used Willamette since I was out of EKG. I don’t believe I’ve used Hallertau/Spalt/Tettnang/Perle. Based on Dave’s comments it sounds like the appropriately chosen Saison yeasts will produce more spice at lower ferm temps.
The current batch in the fermenter is with WLP590. I did not under pitch, I made a 1 Liter SNS starter for a 5.5 gal batch because it is 2 months from the Best Used By date. Started at 64 and am now at 68 so I will hold it there for the remainder.
I think there’s also a bit of goldilocks in there with respect to water ions. Too much chloride and not enough sulfate can end up obscuring some flavors, so consider that. I recommend reviewing the water profiles from known saison producing cities in Belgium to get an impression of what they deal with. Use them like a ‘pinch of salt’
But don’t go overboard with sulfate since a good saison will still have its supporting malt.
My bet as far as water is that DuPont uses a decently hefty amount of sulfate, possibly 300 ppm. Their beers have quite a pronounced hop bite. Doesn’t mean you can’t also use up to like 150 ppm chloride if you want, but feel free to go a bit nuts with the sulfate. Limit any use of Epsom, though, use a lighter touch there to avoid more than about 30 ppm magnesium.
But I really do think noble hops – and OK, maybe Styrian – are the way to go. Shoot for a good 40 IBUs by whichever calculation method you trust (I trust Tinseth more than others, not perfect but better than others). From bittering additions, I mean. Late hopping is more variable, more flexible.
I’d be really surprised if there was that much sulfate.
Dupont fermentation schedule:
Start at 78 F, raise to 98F. Drop to 50F for 2-3 weeks. Condition at 72F for 6 weeks. They lay the bottles on their sides for conditioning. This is much warmer than any of the other 19 breweries I visited.
The water profile for the current batch fermenting is 100/129/6 ppm (chloride/sulfate/magnesium). I’m going to stick with the recommendation to stay in the 65F to 68F range since this fermentation is underway and I’m using WLP-590. I’m going to do another batch with 3726 using the profile that Denny reported. I find it fascinating that one yeast will give pepper on the low end and the other is spicy on the high end. I really thought they would behave in a similar manner for a given temperature.
They didn’t say, but based on their fermentation system I’d guess it’s a bit of both. Dupont is a pretty high tech brewery, and their fermentation system can definitely support adding heat to whatever is created. Maybe Drew or someone else has more complete info.
Is/Was, a saison brewery in Chicago, ferment with Blaugies (3726) in low to mid 80s for a few days, open ferment. They also like noble hops and certain modern noble-style hops. They don’t have the ability to add heat to their fermenter so in the winter the ferment starts in the mid 80s. They like spicy flavors. I haven’t tried to ferment with Blaugies at this temperature.
