In your experience, are Scotch Ales normally cloudy? Recently made one, and its murky -pH was ~5.35, golden promise base, skotrat’s boil down first runnings procedure. A bit of a google search and it looks like a lot of commercial examples are cloudy also. what say you?
My limited experience is no. I’ve made a wee heavy twice with the boiling the first running method and it wasn’t cloudy. The only commercial version I have had recently is Belhaven and that wasn’t. Also, last year in the swap Toby sent me one, again , not cloudy IIRC.
I’ve had several wee heavy that were what I’d call hazy. Murky or cloudy might be an overstatement for these.
What yeast did you use?
You may want to search the forum for a thread about cloudy beers using Maris Otter malt. It sounds very familiar.
Commercially, no. All the best Scottish and Scotch Ales (brewed in Scotland) are not cloudy. They are all cask-conditioned and fined and bright, as long as you get a good publican. As one other stated, Toby G. may have further comment as he brews them far more frequently than I. I use Edinburgh Ale yeast and it settles pretty well. I also fine with gelatin. How was your kettle break during the boil, do you recall? That’s the only obvious thing I can think of it just too much protein and/or polyphenol material got into the ferment. It the haze temperature dependent (e.g. Chill Haze)?
Cheers!
Neil
Neil Spake
It doesn’t sound like its had any time to age. Have you aged it a bit to see if it clears?
002, repitched from another beer that has brilliant clarity.
@jeffy - interesting - I do remember that.
Tastes and smells great just cloudy which is a bit detracting
It’s been in keg for 10 weeks at 37-38df, had hoped by now it would have cleared
Can’t recall the break but that probably means it was normal as I would have noted (and been frustrated) if I got insufficient break
I had a similar issue with a Scottish 60. I kept it for 9 months and finally dumped because I couldn’t get it to clear. It wasn’t contaminated, just cloudy and a little astringent.
Like Jeff I tend to blame the Maris Otter for lending more protein than my process was handling at the time.
Since then I’ve added Whirlfloc and a whirlpool. I’ve brewed other Maris Otter recipes with no issues, but haven’t been brave enough to rebrew that one yet.
If you want it clear brew with some Irish moss. Works like a charm
It should be crystal clear at 10 wks with 002, thats for sure. Maris otter could be the culprit, but even with that aging time it should have dropped out bright.
No, they aren’t. It’s possible the malt may be part of it (inadequate conversion). The first runnings boil shouldn’t be it, although it’s unnecessary if you can sustain a good rolling boil for 2 hours. Historically the reason for it was the challenge of getting a full rolling boil at scale. Since they were basically doing a simmering boil, they’d boil for longer. To get the maillard reactions and complexity they wanted, they’d boil down some of the first runnings.
The issue is almost definitely going to be a protein issue (protein and polyphenols are typical haze producers, but a scotch ale typically isn’t going to be highly hopped so polyphenols from the hops probably aren’t it). What were your mash and boil parameters? Some UK malts take a little longer to fully convert. I do a barleywine style mash on my scotch ale (~149F for 90-120 minutes with a mashout of 168F water) and then a 120 minute full rolling boil. Chill haze is obviously a possibility too. Did you try letting it warm to see if it went away? I’m assuming you used Edinburgh yeast? It’s normally a very good flocculator and will drop clear without any finings (full disclosure: I do use Whirlfloc in the boil to reduce the break/trub that goes into the fermenter).
Yes, there are some US commercial examples that are cloudy, but I suspect they are inadequate conversion issues. None of the ones I’ve had from Scotland have been cloudy.
As close as I get to Scotch ale is wee heavy. I use Golden Promise, 1728, and do the boildown. Ferment in the low 50s, cold condition after fermentation. Brilliantly clear every time.
I’ve gone to fermenting my Scottish ales with US-05 and that works well in producing a clean and malty ale. They are clear too. I do use a large proportion of Golden Promise. Since these are small beers, my mashing temp is a little elevated to reduce fermentability and increase body. I also use a caramalized reduction of first runnings that I found adds a deep maltiness to the beer. I do add Irish Moss in the boil to help with clarity.
I agree that there must be an ingredient in Paul’s grist that is causing a haze. I think its atypical for a Scottish to be cloudy or hazy.
toby I think you may have identified the issue - my guess is maybe I did not mash long enough - 90% of my brewing over the years is german lager and American ale, so pils and rahr 2row are my norm.
I mashed at 152 for 50 min before raising to 168 for mashout.
I used 002 not Edinburgh as I had just made a red extra IPA with the former 2 weeks prior, otherwise I would have.
What I did also note was that my attenuation was significantly lower than I expected. I got 71% on this beer, whereas my norm for 002 is 75-80%, in fact I hit ~78% on the previous beer from which the slurry came.
The beer is very very good, mind you, but the I compared it to Dirty Bastard yesterday - the aroma lacks what I would consider the higher notes of caramelly rich malt, almost doppelbock like notes, and is not nearly as crisp in the finish as the ‘control’ beer. My beer feels more full and creamy in mouthfeel. Head retention is much greater in mine.
i’ll take your advice and mash a bit longer next time I make this and maybe even just do a long boil rather than the boildown - easy enough.
I think I’d also like to look into my grist composition a bit more - I like the deeper, darker color and complexity of DB than what I made which was 81% GP, 15% Dark Munich and 4% Eng Med Crystal.
I made a wee heavy, I guess I always thought Scotch Ale and Wee Heavy were one in the same. my bad.
Yeah, definitely increase your mash time. The head retention also points to proteins. Fullers yeast is passable, but you’ll get some slightly different characteristics. That shouldn’t make a difference in haze or attenuation, though. Looks like mash time is it.
[quote]I think I’d also like to look into my grist composition a bit more - I like the deeper, darker color and complexity of DB than what I made which was 81% GP, 15% Dark Munich and 4% Eng Med Crystal.
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Scotch ale doesn’t need to be a complicated malt bill at all. Mine is ~88% pale ale malt, 8% c10, ~2% carafoam, and ~2% roasted barley.
No, you’re right. Strong Scotch Ale and Wee Heavy are the same thing. Lower strength Scots ales are typically referred to as Scottish ales these days.
You’re right! I read your post as “Scottish ale”, which I take to be the lower gravity version.