SG Going Up and Down

I brewed a stout at 1.085, according to a Smartref. Pitched one packet of hydrated Lutra. This was three days ago.

One day later, I measured it with my old hydrometer, and I got 1.027.

Yesterday, i measured again and I got 1.029

Today, I got 1.026. Then I walked away for a while, leaving the sample on the counter. Came back later, and I had 1.028 plus a hair at 73. That’s 1.030.

Can’t figure out what’s happening.

I’m degassing the beer. I’m making sure there is no water or anything but beer in the graduated cylinder. I’m letting the beer settle.

Any ideas?

If repeated measurements on the same sample give different results then your measuring technique is at fault (unless you have quantum beer). Without being there and seeing what you are doing, I can’t go any further in diagnosis.

Not sure what a Smartref is or how it measures, but regardless there is always some degree of error in measuring anything.  Your measurements are clustering around 1.028 or so with not a ton of variation.  If I had to guess, a Smartref gives you some sort of digital readout that makes you think that its more accurate than it really is.  I’d settle for the average reading and use that for whatever you need it for.  You could always take another reading with another device, say a hydrometer, and compare.  Without careful calibration, you cannot know which device is accurate.

Thanks for the replies.

The Smartref is a digital machine I only use for OG.

There is probably someone on this forum who has had the same problem and will know what’s happening.

I know what’s happening. The heavy solids in the beer settle and push the hydrometer up.

Hydrometers don’t work in solutions that aren’t homogeneous.

The low readings are more correct than the high ones.

Someone else suggested evaporation and temperature change are what caused the change. That’s wrong.

Temperature change is accounted for in a calculation, obviously.

The exposed area of the beer is way too small for evaporation to matter. As proof, let me point out that the gravity readings of my beer stabilized with time, in spite of continued evaporation.

I haven’t been able to think of anything that would cause a false low reading. Maybe someone else knows. Doesn’t matter in this case, but something to wonder about.

If you throw poodles into a swimming pool does the water get more dense? Solids in the beer don’t matter unless there is so much the hydrometer bottoms out on them.

Sorry, but totally wrong. Poodles DO make the pool more dense. Obvious if you think about it. Weigh the water without poodles. Weigh it with poodles in it. Compensate for the difference in volume. The density is higher.

Imagine putting a condensed neutron star the size of a fist into a pool and then weighing the contents of the pool. Denser as a sample, even if not uniform.

Would putting a poodle in a bathtub affect a hydrometer a foot away? No. But put a million poodles in a tub the size of a ship,let them sink, and use a giant hydrometer (lighter than poodles) that rested among them, and the density difference would show. It would sit on top of a layer of poodles.

This is not about huge particles like poodles. It’s about tiny,slick particles than blend in with the fluid. And unlike poodles, proteins and yeast globs and so on don’t go all the way to the bottom.

This is hard to explain to people who don’t have physics backgrounds, but it’s not a binary thing.

Think of a can of tomato juice that hasn’t been shaken. The solids do not go to the bottom. They form a thick layer next to the bottom, just like the solids in my beer. If you were to measure the gravity of that layer, you would find it higher than the density of the clear liquid above it. There is more mass in it per unit of volume.

The hydrometer bulb rests in a deep layer of liquid full of heavy solids that have fallen lower in the column, so it measures the density of that layer.

This reminds me of a funny story one of my profs told me when I was in grad school in physics. He told it to show how people who think they know more than they do have to be careful. His name was Larry Shepley. He came out of Princeton’s Institute for Advanced Studies. Larry said he had seen this question asked in a room full of top physicists, and every single one got it wrong.

Anyway, he said you take unhomogenized milk and shake it. Then you put it down. How do you measure the pressure at a given point? Knowing he asked so I could say something wrong, I said what the other guys said. I didn’t try to figure it out. I said you measure the depth at that point. He said, “That is, of course, wrong.”

Because the milk isn’t homogeneous, the density varies with the depth, so it’s not linear. You don’t know how much mass is above the point of measurement. You have to know that in order to know the pressure.

Pressure is what drives a hydrometer. Pascal’s principle. The molecules in the fluid push in every direction, including up.

My beer is like the settling milk. You have to measure it right away, not after the cream begins to rise.

There were no bubbles. Evaporation over hours didn’t matter. Everything was clean. I compensated for temperature every time. It’s the solids.

Stratification, perhaps?

The principle of buoyancy is that the upward force is equal to the weight of the material displaced. If there are solids in the liquid but they aren’t displaced by the hydrometer, as in a poodle in a swimming pool, they won’t affect the reading of a hydrometer. If the solids settle to the bottom and are not displaced by the hydrometer they will not affect the reading. If there are solids suspended that settle out very slowly then they will affect the reading, but the fact that they settle very slowly means that their density is not much different than the surrounding liquid so they won’t affect the reading very much.

I’m a retired mining engineer. It’s not something that’s helpful in most life situations, but it helps in this case. Heavy media separation is sometimes used to separate minerals by specific gravity. From Dense-Heavy Medium Separation HMS / DMS Process “Since most of the liquids used in the laboratory are expensive or toxic, the dense medium used in industrial separations is a thick suspension, or pulp, of some heavy solid in water, which behaves as a heavy liquid.”

For this method to work, the solids must be very fine so that it stays in suspension long enough for the separation to take place. This is the same effect as floating a hydrometer in wort that has very fine yeast or other solids suspended - the water with solids acts as a heavy liquid.

[quote]Stratification, perhaps?
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]The principle of buoyancy is that the upward force is equal to the weight of the material displaced. If there are solids in the liquid but they aren’t displaced by the hydrometer, as in a poodle in a swimming pool, they won’t affect the reading of a hydrometer.
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]If there are solids suspended that settle out very slowly then they will affect the reading
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]the fact that they settle very slowly means that their density is not much different than the surrounding liquid so they won’t affect the reading very much.
[/quote]

Depends on what you mean by “very much.” A density discrepancy of a few points is very small. Also, the separation occurred over a few minutes, so not that slowly. Everyone here knows what it’s like to see stuff at the bottom of an empty beer glass.

I agree that 1.026 - 1.028 is a small difference, and could be due to particles settling out. I personally wouldn’t worry about it. Most SG measurements are not highly accurate in the first place.

This is the correct answer.

After it’s finished the solids should settle. I imagine the gravity readings will stabilize.

Did you de-gas the beer when you did your measurements?  If there is CO2 coming out of solution of the beer in the test jar, it will make the hydrometer float higher when the bubbles stick to the sides of it.  You need to pour the beer back and forth into two beakers/glasses or whatever vessels you have before you take a measurement to get the CO2 out of solution.

It was definitely degassed.

Settling is what caused the measurement problem. Maybe this is a bigger problem with quick yeasts like kveik.

I’m trying to understand this.  I can see where “the poodles” (i.e., the denser particulates) could increase the density of the liquid in which they’re floating.

However, when they settle to the bottom, then wouldn’t you have a denser solution at the bottom and a less dense solution near the top?  If the hydrometer is floating, it would be in the less dense liquid near the top, wouldn’t it?  So, shouldn’t the density decrease with time if material is settling?

See my answer above. The average density of the whole liquid volume is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the weight of the volume displaced by the hydrometer.  Anything that settles to the bottom and isn’t displaced by the hydrometer will not affect the reading.

How would the poodles increase the density of the water if they’re not dissolved in the water?