# Shaken not Stirred **URL:** \ **Category:** Ingredients\ **Created:** [February 7, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045 "2015-02-07T02:04:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TMX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tmx/32/10834_2.png) [@TMX](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/TMX)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/1 "2015-02-07T02:04:34Z")
![IMG_1122_zps664e3c14.jpg](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/2X/7/7c26426b1a4e276eadabfed3b3875c16859eb4c3.jpeg) Trying the “James Bond” starter method. Lots of messages back and forth with @S. cerevisiae to get an understanding of his process. Here are the steps I am going by: 1.  Gather the stuff needed 2.25 L water 200g DME Glassware Lids Funnel Sanitizer Cotton Alcohol Yeast 2.  Prepare and boil starter wort for 15 min; chill when complete 3.  While chilling; sanitize glass jugs, lids, funnels, and other equipment needed 4.  When chilling complete: Clean pouring lip of pan with alcohol and transfer in to 2x1g glass jug 5.  Clean yeast package / vial with alcohol and add equal amounts to each starter 6.  Cap jugs, and “Shake like they owe you money” 7.  Rest for a few min and loosen caps 8.  Pitch or crash at High Krausen This is split to get two 1 litre starters to pitch in 10g of wort…Irish Red I am brewing on Sunday. More to follow. T ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/2 "2015-02-07T03:51:45Z")
I’m kinda in too. Starting my starters brew morning and pitching at HK ---
**Author:** ![Brewday](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/brewday/32/21101_2.png) [@Brewday](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Brewday)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/3 "2015-02-07T04:03:16Z")
Tomorrow will be my third batch in a row using a similar method.  So far so good… ---
**Author:** ![narcout](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/narcout/32/7683_2.png) [@narcout](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/narcout)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/4 "2015-02-07T09:01:22Z")
> [@TMX](#): > > 8.  Pitch or crash at High Krausen I’ve been trying the crash at high krausen method myself (although I hit my starters with O2 rather than shaking, and I put them on a stir plate at a very low RPM). ---
**Author:** ![Philbrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/858c86/32.png) [@Philbrew](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Philbrew)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/5 "2015-02-07T15:58:56Z")
> [@TMX](#): > > Yeast > 2.  Prepare and boil starter wort for 15 min; chill when complete > 3.  While chilling; sanitize glass jugs, lids, funnels, and other equipment needed > 4.  When chilling complete: Clean pouring lip of pan with alcohol and transfer in to 2x1g glass jug > 5.  Clean yeast package / vial with alcohol and add equal amounts to each starter > 6.  Cap jugs, and “Shake like they owe you money” > 7.  Rest for a few min and loosen caps > 8.  Pitch or crash at High Krausen > > This is split to get two 1 litre starters to pitch in 10g of wort…Irish Red I am brewing on Sunday. > More to follow. > > T How much and what kind of yeast? How long between steps 7 & 8? ---
**Author:** ![TMX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tmx/32/10834_2.png) [@TMX](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/TMX)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/6 "2015-02-07T18:15:51Z")
Split a vial of Irish Ale yeast from a local source that rents space at the college microbiology lab in Colorado Springs decanted until there was 30ml of yeast and medium then put half in each jug Only have to wait a minute or so. Just to give it time for the wort to run back down so you don’t get sprayed in the face when you break the seal. After that I just leave the caps sitting on top of the jug ---
**Author:** ![Philbrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/858c86/32.png) [@Philbrew](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Philbrew)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/7 "2015-02-07T21:08:19Z")
> [@TMX](#): > > Split a vial of Irish Ale yeast from a local source that rents space at the college microbiology lab in Colorado Springs decanted until there was 30ml of yeast and medium then put half in each jug > > Only have to wait a minute or so. Just to give it time for the wort to run back down so you don’t get sprayed in the face when you break the seal. After that I just leave the caps sitting on top of the jug How long from when you pitch the yeast in the starter to when high krausen occurs in the starter?  Do you add starter to main wort at that time? ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/8 "2015-02-07T21:50:07Z")
> [@Philbrew](#): > > > [@TMX](#): > > > > Split a vial of Irish Ale yeast from a local source that rents space at the college microbiology lab in Colorado Springs decanted until there was 30ml of yeast and medium then put half in each jug > > > > Only have to wait a minute or so. Just to give it time for the wort to run back down so you don’t get sprayed in the face when you break the seal. After that I just leave the caps sitting on top of the jug > > How long from when you pitch the yeast in the starter to when high krausen occurs in the starter?  Do you add starter to main wort at that time? 1. Depends 2. You bet, unless you didn’t or couldn’t time it right. In that case, crash it in the fridge before it ferments out. ---
**Author:** ![TMX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tmx/32/10834_2.png) [@TMX](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/TMX)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/9 "2015-02-07T22:56:16Z")
> [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > [@Philbrew](#): > > > > > [@TMX](#): > > > > > > Split a vial of Irish Ale yeast from a local source that rents space at the college microbiology lab in Colorado Springs decanted until there was 30ml of yeast and medium then put half in each jug > > > > > > Only have to wait a minute or so. Just to give it time for the wort to run back down so you don’t get sprayed in the face when you break the seal. After that I just leave the caps sitting on top of the jug > > > > How long from when you pitch the yeast in the starter to when high krausen occurs in the starter?  Do you add starter to main wort at that time? > > 1. Depends > 2. You bet, unless you didn’t or couldn’t time it right. In that case, crash it in the fridge before it ferments out. Mine went about 12 hours. I then crashed it and will pitch tomorrow. I will taste the starter before I pitch. ---
**Author:** ![Brewday](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/brewday/32/21101_2.png) [@Brewday](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Brewday)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/10 "2015-02-07T23:08:16Z")
The first two for me went 12-14 hrs.  Today - sometime under 12 hrs. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/11 "2015-02-07T23:45:50Z")
Most one to two liter starters that are made with a vial of White Labs yeast or an activator smack pack of Wyeast yeast should reach high krausen within 12 to 18 hours, sometimes sooner.  The cells are in high gear when high krausen is reached. ---
**Author:** ![TMX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tmx/32/10834_2.png) [@TMX](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/TMX)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/12 "2015-02-08T02:27:47Z")
![SAM_1158_zpsd0cd1ac9.jpg](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/2X/7/7d3bdf9fbaed2fc779b9d7b071653716b2a2a9a0.jpeg) Nice little yeast bed ready to be pitched tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Philbrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/858c86/32.png) [@Philbrew](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Philbrew)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/13 "2015-02-08T04:05:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Most one to two liter starters that are made with a vial of White Labs yeast or an activator smack pack of Wyeast yeast should reach high krausen within 12 to 18 hours, sometimes sooner.  The cells are in high gear when high krausen is reached. Thanks, that answers my Q. ---
**Author:** ![69franx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/69franx/32/10699_2.png) [@69franx](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/69franx)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/14 "2015-02-09T21:18:23Z")
As an example, my next brew day will be 5.5G of 1.05(targeted) Pilsner. Beersmith, MrMalty, and Yeastcalc all call for around 385B cells, give or take. If I buy 1 vial of WLP 833, split it as above into 2 1L starters, and shake the heck out of, what is my approximate yield cell mass? If I remember correctly Mark, maximum density in 1L is 200B cells, so I should yield roughly 400B, correct? Is this putting too much stress on half a vial, for a lager, asking it to go from about 50B to 200B in one step? Most of those calculators call for 2 vials and huge starters to get there: 6L un-stirred, for 1 vial, 4L for 2 vials, etc. I have 5L flask and 1G jug, so I can easily split into 2 vessels, just don’t want to stress my yeast. My last 2 lagers were both under-attenuated by 5 points or so. 5 points may not be much, but they both taste sweet to me, but I know they were under-attenuated. I just really don’t want a sweet pilsner. This brew day is still almost 2 weeks out, so let me know what you think ---
**Author:** ![narcout](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/narcout/32/7683_2.png) [@narcout](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/narcout)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/15 "2015-02-09T21:50:07Z")
If you have a copy of Yeast, there is a table on page 140 which shows how many cells resulted from pitching 100 billion cells into various amounts of starter wort. When 100 billion cells were pitched into 2 liters of 1.036 wort at 70 degrees, the result was 205 billion cells. When 100 billion cells were pitched into 4 liters of the same wort, the result was 276 billion cells. However, the wort was not oxygenated nor was the starter agitated.  I think that would have increased the cell counts. I wish they had run several different iterations of the experiment to test the effects of oxygen, agitation, stir plates, etc. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/16 "2015-02-09T21:58:35Z")
> [@69franx](#): > > Is this putting too much stress on half a vial, for a lager, asking it to go from about 50B to 200B in one step? Absolutely not, if you saw how little yeast I pitch into 600ml of wort, you would would never again question pitching half of a White Labs vial into 1L of wort. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/17 "2015-02-09T22:08:22Z")
> [@narcout](#): > > When 100 billion cells were pitched into 2 liters of 1.036 wort at 70 degrees, the result was 205 billion cells. When 100 billion cells were pitched into 4 liters of the same wort, the result was 276 billion cells. Increasing the cell count from 100B to 205B cells requires the viable cells to double a little more than one time, which tells me that dissolved O2 was more than likely the limiting factor in this experiment.  **The requirements for this method are a starter vessel that is three, preferably four or more times the volume of the starter.**   Ignoring this requirement has the potential to negatively impact the results one obtains from the method.  Luckily, one gallon jugs are relatively cheap. ---
**Author:** ![TMX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tmx/32/10834_2.png) [@TMX](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/TMX)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/18 "2015-02-10T02:32:26Z")
So. I pitched yesterday at about 68F around 5pm, took a quick look this morning about 7am and saw the largest krausen EVER in on of my beers. ---
**Author:** ![Philbrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/858c86/32.png) [@Philbrew](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/Philbrew)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/19 "2015-02-10T03:59:49Z")
[quote=“, post:17, topic:19045”] [quote=“narcout, post:15, topic:19045, username:narcout”] **The requirements for this method are a starter vessel that is three, preferably four or more times the volume of the starter.**   Why?  Is it the O2 available in the headspace, and cannot enriching the O2 percentage in the headspace allow one to “cheat” on the starter/vessel ratio to some degree?  I want to do 2 starters and 8L vessels are impractical and hard-to-find! (and afford!) ---
**Author:** ![TMX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/tmx/32/10834_2.png) [@TMX](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/TMX)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045/20 "2015-02-10T05:30:33Z")
You don’t need 2  8L vessels, just 2 4L vessels, or any vessel that is 3-4 times larger than the starter you want to make. I used 2 1gallon jugs to make 2 1L starters to pitch into 10gal of wort [Next page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shaken-not-stirred/19045.md?page=2)