# shocking my system **URL:** \ **Category:** General Homebrew Discussion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148 "2014-11-11T17:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/41 "2014-11-13T01:49:01Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > See my post above. I will believe they guy that has been in the industry for years and created the stuff. > > He’s making a claim that is not supported by science.  Star San belongs to a class of sanitizers known as “acid anionic sanitizers.”  Members of this class of sanitizers have limited anti-microbial properties.  They are in no way as effective as oxidizing halogens when it comes to broad spectrum anti-microbial properties. > > From “Principles of Food Sanitation” ([Principles of Food Sanitation - Norman Marriott, Robert B. Gravani - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=lCRxcp3gfhUC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=acid+anionic+sanitizer+mechanism&source=bl&ots=oOdpNfn5b8&sig=BFDwDZJtIT_H1mVtXMVvCMPED9k&hl=en&ei=uKrgTIX_OcGAlAfd0MWcAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=acid%20anionic%20sanitizer%20mechanism&f=false)): > > “Acid anionic sanitizers act rapidly and **kill a broad spectrum of bacteria and have good bacteriophage activity.**   They have good stability, minimal odor, are nonstaining, effective in a wide temperature range, and are not affected by water hardness.  An acidified rinse can be combined with the sanitizing step and removes and controls mineral films.  These sanitizers can be corrosive to unprotected metals and a skin irritant, inactivated by cationic surfactants, may foam too much for CIP equipment, are less effective at higher pH, **have limited and varied antimicrobial activity (including poor yeast and mold activity)**, and are more expensive than the halogen sanitizers.  **The antimicrobial effects of acid anionics appears to be through reaction of the surfactant, with positively charged bacteria by ionic attraction to penetrate cell walls and disrupt cellular activity.** ” > > The above citation supports my thesis that Star San is more of an anti-bacterial than a true anti-microbial. Yeast and mold cells are negatively charged.  Oxidizing halogens such as hypochlorus acid and iodine carry no charge, which allows them to penetrate the cell walls of yeast and mold. While this all seems to be true, how can you explain the apparent effectiveness of star-san in the homebrew and craft brew community? If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? On a separate note, what is the difference between wild yeast and domesticated yeast? If it is ineffective against wild yeast why would it be be any better against the great variety of yeast strains that we use? ---
**Author:** ![skatz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/skatz/32/6982_2.png) [@skatz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/skatz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/42 "2014-11-13T01:59:10Z")
> [@troybinso](#): > > If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? Maybe this will help. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/43 "2014-11-13T02:09:32Z")
> [@troybinso](#): > > While this all seems to be true, how can you explain the apparent effectiveness of star-san in the homebrew and craft brew community? If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? The primary target market for Star San is the home brewing trade.  It foams too much to be used with CIP equipment. I have a theory as to why many home brewers do not encounter Star San’s weak spot, and that theory has to do with the chlorine residual found in chlorinated public water supplies.  I believe that brewers who are washing and rinsing with chlorinated water are less likely to encounter this problem than brewers who are washing and rinsing with non-treated water (i.e., well water). > [@](#): > > On a separate note, what is the difference between wild yeast and domesticated yeast? If it is ineffective against wild yeast why would it be be any better against the great variety of yeast strains that we use? Star San doesn’t kill domestic yeast either. ---
**Author:** ![jonhughey\_att.net](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/jonhughey_att.net/32/6277_2.png) [@jonhughey\_att.net](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/jonhughey_att.net)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/44 "2014-11-13T02:13:10Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? > > Maybe this will help. 😉 LMAO. Best laugh o’ the day. ---
**Author:** ![erockrph](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/erockrph/32/13330_2.png) [@erockrph](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/erockrph)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/45 "2014-11-13T02:24:16Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > While this all seems to be true, how can you explain the apparent effectiveness of star-san in the homebrew and craft brew community? If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? > > The primary target market for Star San is the home brewing trade.  It foams too much to be used with CIP equipment. > > I have a theory as to why many home brewers do not encounter Star San’s weak spot, and that theory has to do with the chlorine residual found in chlorinated public water supplies.  I believe that brewers who are washing and rinsing with chlorinated water are less likely to encounter this problem than brewers who are washing and rinsing with non-treated water (i.e., well water). > > > [@](#): > > > > On a separate note, what is the difference between wild yeast and domesticated yeast? If it is ineffective against wild yeast why would it be be any better against the great variety of yeast strains that we use? > > Star San doesn’t kill domestic yeast either. Per “Antimicrobials in Food. Third Edition” (2005), regarding acid-anionic surfactants: “Most yeast strains are inactivated by use dilutions of these compounds, but fungal spores are relatively resistant.” It seems like there isn’t a clear agreement in the literature regarding the antifungal properties of acid-anionics. It would be an interesting experiment to rehydrate a pack of dry yeast in some Star-San, then pitch it in some wort and see what happens. Having said that, Star San is like a shotgun while bleach is like a nuke. More often than not, the shotgun is going to get the job done well enough. But the nuke is always going to get the job done completely. ---
**Author:** ![wort-h.o.g](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/wort-h.o.g/32/11975_2.png) [@wort-h.o.g](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/wort-h.o.g)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/46 "2014-11-13T02:34:21Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > > > If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? > > > > Maybe this will help. 😉 > > LMAO. Best laugh o’ the day. Oh man…priceless [emoji28]. I Better not get a yeast infection. ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/47 "2014-11-13T03:30:20Z")
The difference between wild and domesticated yeast. By the way I like the idea of someone domesticating yeast… Anyway, in homebrew terms I think wild means yeast from the surroundings (AKA cool ship) they kind of intentionally allowed in, where as unintentional would be called infection, or more precisely contamination.  Domesticated I suppose would indicate a strain that was cultured and pitched on purpose. Any yeast could be any of the 3. Think of brett. If you open ferment and some gets in, thats wild. If you close ferment and some gets in thats an infection. If you go to a LHBS and buy some brett to pitch, thats domesticated. Back to the discussion at hand, I doubt the sanitizer knows if its wild, contamination, or domesticated. ---
**Author:** ![hopfenundmalz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/hopfenundmalz/32/11193_2.png) [@hopfenundmalz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/hopfenundmalz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/48 "2014-11-13T03:56:47Z")
> [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > The difference between wild and domesticated yeast. By the way I like the idea of someone domesticating yeast… > > Anyway, in homebrew terms I think wild means yeast from the surroundings (AKA cool ship) they kind of intentionally allowed in, where as unintentional would be called infection, or more precisely contamination.  Domesticated I suppose would indicate a strain that was cultured and pitched on purpose. Any yeast could be any of the 3. Think of brett. If you open ferment and some gets in, thats wild. If you close ferment and some gets in thats an infection. If you go to a LHBS and buy some brett to pitch, thats domesticated. Back to the discussion at hand, I doubt the sanitizer knows if its wild, contamination, or domesticated. So wolves, bears, and large cats bred for generations on zoos are domesticated? ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/49 "2014-11-13T04:12:04Z")
> [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > > [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > > The difference between wild and domesticated yeast. By the way I like the idea of someone domesticating yeast… > > > > Anyway, in homebrew terms I think wild means yeast from the surroundings (AKA cool ship) they kind of intentionally allowed in, where as unintentional would be called infection, or more precisely contamination.  Domesticated I suppose would indicate a strain that was cultured and pitched on purpose. Any yeast could be any of the 3. Think of brett. If you open ferment and some gets in, thats wild. If you close ferment and some gets in thats an infection. If you go to a LHBS and buy some brett to pitch, thats domesticated. Back to the discussion at hand, I doubt the sanitizer knows if its wild, contamination, or domesticated. > > So wolves, bears, and large cats bred for generations on zoos are domesticated? This might be an undomesticated rabbit trail, but I would say yes they are, to a degree. I wouldn’t call them wild, or a contamination,  so that leaves domesticated. But thats just an opinion. Its been a long time since I’ve done much zooing ---
**Author:** ![hopfenundmalz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/hopfenundmalz/32/11193_2.png) [@hopfenundmalz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/hopfenundmalz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/50 "2014-11-13T15:05:04Z")
> [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > > > > [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > > > > The difference between wild and domesticated yeast. By the way I like the idea of someone domesticating yeast… > > > > > > Anyway, in homebrew terms I think wild means yeast from the surroundings (AKA cool ship) they kind of intentionally allowed in, where as unintentional would be called infection, or more precisely contamination.  Domesticated I suppose would indicate a strain that was cultured and pitched on purpose. Any yeast could be any of the 3. Think of brett. If you open ferment and some gets in, thats wild. If you close ferment and some gets in thats an infection. If you go to a LHBS and buy some brett to pitch, thats domesticated. Back to the discussion at hand, I doubt the sanitizer knows if its wild, contamination, or domesticated. > > > > So wolves, bears, and large cats bred for generations on zoos are domesticated? > > This might be an undomesticated rabbit trail, but I would say yes they are, to a degree. I wouldn’t call them wild, or a contamination,  so that leaves domesticated. But thats just an opinion. Its been a long time since I’ve done much zooing Just don’t get in the enclosure next time at the zoo. ---
**Author:** ![hopfenundmalz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/hopfenundmalz/32/11193_2.png) [@hopfenundmalz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/hopfenundmalz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/51 "2014-11-13T15:07:11Z")
> [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > [@hopfenundmalz](#): > > > > > [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > > > > The difference between wild and domesticated yeast. By the way I like the idea of someone domesticating yeast… > > > > > > Anyway, in homebrew terms I think wild means yeast from the surroundings (AKA cool ship) they kind of intentionally allowed in, where as unintentional would be called infection, or more precisely contamination.  Domesticated I suppose would indicate a strain that was cultured and pitched on purpose. Any yeast could be any of the 3. Think of brett. If you open ferment and some gets in, thats wild. If you close ferment and some gets in thats an infection. If you go to a LHBS and buy some brett to pitch, thats domesticated. Back to the discussion at hand, I doubt the sanitizer knows if its wild, contamination, or domesticated. > > > > So wolves, bears, and large cats bred for generations on zoos are domesticated? > > This might be an undomesticated rabbit trail, but I would say yes they are, to a degree. I wouldn’t call them wild, or a contamination,  so that leaves domesticated. But thats just an opinion. Its been a long time since I’ve done much zooing Just don’t get in the enclosure next time at the zoo. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/52 "2014-11-13T15:41:40Z")
So, we could either be talking about “wild” yeast, as in, Saccharomyces floating in the air, or Brettanomyces. Either way, I have major doubts that the residual 1ppm of chlorine is going to kill more yeast than Star San would. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/53 "2014-11-13T16:26:57Z")
> [@narvin](#): > > Either way, I have major doubts that the residual 1ppm of chlorine is going to kill more yeast than Star San would. As mentioned above, it’s a theory, not a fact.  I need to conduct more research in this area. ---
**Author:** ![denny](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/denny/32/13092_2.png) [@denny](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/denny)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/54 "2014-11-13T16:46:43Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > While this all seems to be true, how can you explain the apparent effectiveness of star-san in the homebrew and craft brew community? If star-san doesn’t kill off wild yeast wouldn’t you expect to find a pretty high incidence of wild yeast infection? > > The primary target market for Star San is the home brewing trade.  It foams too much to be used with CIP equipment. > > I have a theory as to why many home brewers do not encounter Star San’s weak spot, and that theory has to do with the chlorine residual found in chlorinated public water supplies.  I believe that brewers who are washing and rinsing with chlorinated water are less likely to encounter this problem than brewers who are washing and rinsing with non-treated water (i.e., well water). You might want to inform all the commercial breweries using StarSan that they’re at risk.  I’m gonna have to se some evidence that homebrewers are the primary target before I can accept that.  There aren’t enough homebrewers to be a lucrative market for Five star.  If commercial breweries werent using it, it wouldn’t be available. And how my case where I don’t use chlorinated water, yet have never had a sanitation problem using StarSan.  Sorry, but you’re making statements that might be supported by “science”, but are completely out of sync with reality. ---
**Author:** ![skatz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/skatz/32/6982_2.png) [@skatz](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/skatz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/55 "2014-11-13T16:53:06Z")
> [@denny](#): > > I’m gonna have to se some evidence that homebrewers are the primary target before I can accept that.  There aren’t enough homebrewers to be a lucrative market for Five star.  If commercial breweries werent using it, it wouldn’t be available. On BBR, the creator actually stated that it was a homebrewing friend that requested he make something for homebrewers that was easier to use then bleach. But I agree with you, homebrewers alone won’t sustain his sales. Hell, I spend $16 every 4-5 years on star san and he promotes using DI or RO water and saving it for months and months. ---
**Author:** ![ynotbrusum](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/ynotbrusum/32/10316_2.png) [@ynotbrusum](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/ynotbrusum)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/56 "2014-11-13T17:21:26Z")
We have to remember that many of us couple Star San as a second step after cleaning with something like PBW or Oxyclean, so the first step may have killed off many of the nasties that Star San would not.  The discussion is good, because it makes us think of the universe of potential problems.  It also illustrates the potential problem with incomplete or shortcut processes.  I have encountered mold - rarely - so this makes me consider the right combination of cleaners and sanitizers.  What do most of you do as your SOP on your fermenters?  Do you clean and sanitize, then store and merely sanitize again before use?  If so, you may expose the fermenter to airborne contaminants that are not killed off with your sanitizer, if it isn’t anti-microbial in addition to being anti-bacterial. Very interesting discussion.  By the way, I have well water, so nhere is  no chlorine in my household water supply. ---
**Author:** ![wort-h.o.g](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/wort-h.o.g/32/11975_2.png) [@wort-h.o.g](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/wort-h.o.g)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/57 "2014-11-13T17:35:39Z")
> [@ynotbrusum](#): > > We have to remember that many of us couple Star San as a second step after cleaning with something like PBW or Oxyclean, so the first step may have killed off many of the nasties that Star San would not.  The discussion is good, because it makes us think of the universe of potential problems.  It also illustrates the potential problem with incomplete or shortcut processes.  I have encountered mold - rarely - so this makes me consider the right combination of cleaners and sanitizers.  What do most of you do as your SOP on your fermenters?  Do you clean and sanitize, then store and merely sanitize again before use?  If so, you may expose the fermenter to airborne contaminants that are not killed off with your sanitizer, if it isn’t anti-microbial in addition to being anti-bacterial. > > Very interesting discussion.  By the way, I have well water, so nhere is  no chlorine in my household water supply. my carboys get the LD Carlson easy clean oxy treatment to remove all crud, followed by starsan until ready to use-than i blast them with starsan right before filling. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/58 "2014-11-13T17:38:51Z")
> [@](#): > > But I agree with you, homebrewers alone won’t sustain his sales. Star San is not Five Star’s only product.  Companies will continue to manufacture a product as long as it is profitable to do so. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/59 "2014-11-13T17:50:02Z")
> [@denny](#): > > You might want to inform all the commercial breweries using StarSan that they’re at risk.  I’m gonna have to se some evidence that homebrewers are the primary target before I can accept that.  There aren’t enough homebrewers to be a lucrative market for Five star.  If commercial breweries werent using it, it wouldn’t be available. Every pro-brewer with whom I have spoken does not use Star San.  If they use an acid-based Five Star product, it is SaniClean.  As I mentioned earlier, Star San foams too much to use with CIP equipment. From what I can ascertain, the movement in food processing is toward chlorine dioxide, which means that commercial brewing is not far behind. ---
**Author:** ![joe\_feist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/joe_feist/32/7969_2.png) [@joe\_feist](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/joe_feist)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148/60 "2014-11-13T17:51:40Z")
Great thread. I used bleach for years. I didn’t have a problem with it from a sanitizing/no rinse stand point. But I’m clumsy as hell. My wife got really tired of shorts, jeans and t-shirts with white spots all over…and my stuff didn’t look much better! Anyway, now I have one bottle each of star-san and iodophore and grab which ever is closest on brew day. I too have well water and haven’t experienced any problems in that regard. Good luck with the “shock” if you feel you still want to do that. [Previous page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/shocking-my-system/18148.md?page=4)