So I brewed my first sour, a recipe for a “Sour Brown Ale” in January, and curiosity got the better of me last night- it has now been 10 months and it was time to see what this sucker tasted like. I pulled a small amount off and to my surprise it was nowhere near as sour as I was expecting.
It was fermented with a Belgian strain for primary, and then after about 6-8 weeks I racked it onto 3 lbs of raspberry puree, some medium toast french oak spirals that were soaked in Johnnie Walker Red, and I added Brett, Pedio & Lacto. It’s been sitting there ever since- taunting me from the corner of my bedroom to prematurely drink it.
It is much more malty than I wanted. But I think this could be a good thing if I can get more tart character to it- but how? You can definitely tell that there is a slightly acidic after taste, but I want to be puckering up like I just had a Thanksgiving dinner composed entirely of Warheads. How can I sour this thing up? Here are the options I am considering:
-Do nothing- leave it to grow old and sour peacefully. It is sitting at room temp (~68).
-Add heat: Could those bugs speed up the process if I wrapped my carboy with a low intensity heating blanket or something?
-Rack it onto some strawberries to add some more sugar for the bugs to work on- I am afraid they are out of food.
-Chalk this up as a learning experience
Another factor is that this thing has turned out with a WAY higher ABV than I anticipated. I was shooting for ~8%, but with the raspberry puree, it is currently sitting at like 14%. Could the high ABV cause the Lacto & Pedio to be inactive?
Anyone with experience who would like to lend some advice from a similar situation would be appreciated!
I added the OG with the estimated additional sugars from the raspberry addition- OG was around 1.065 and according to the label raspberry puree, I needed to add an additional 1.050-1.057, giving me a total of (potentially) 1.122. The FG is 1.012.
Even though the wort had finished fermenting before I added the raspberries, I was under the impression that I could simply add the additional sugars from the fruit addition to my OG to get an accurate measurement of the total.
8% ABV is on the high end for lacto’s tolerance, so you are relying on pedio for the bulk of acid production. Pedio is SLOW and always late to the party. I don’t expect any pedio activity for at least 8 months on an initial pitch, and a year wouldn’t be unheard of.
Pedio doesn’t do oxygen, so fight the urge to sample, rack the beer, or move the carboy around (unless you need to hide it so it stops taunting you). Sample again in 3-4 months. If there’s no increase in acidity after that, you might consider blending/repitching/etc.
Not exactly - you have to take the volumes into account.
(OG1xV1 + OG2xV2) / (V1+V2) = OG
In other words, the OG of your beer times the volume (1.065 @ 5 gallons = 65x5 = 325 points) plus the sugar from your fruit (1.053 @ 1 gallon (?) = 53x1 = 53 points) divided by the total volume ((325+53)/6=63, so your beer had an “OG” of 1.063 and is now at 1.012 so it is 6.7% ABV. Obviously you need to use your real numbers, I took some guesses.
But either way, the yeast may have started a renewed fermentation when you added the fruit. You might consider boiling 1/2 lb of maltodextrine in a couple of cups of water to dissolve it, then add that to the fermenter. The yeast won’t be able to break it down, but the bugs will and that will give you an acidity bump.
Tom- Thanks for breaking that down for me! This was my first time experimenting with adding any pureed fruit to my beer, so there is always a learning experience. I appreciate it. I like the idea of boiling/adding the maltodextrine and will probably do so this weekend.
So no one suggests adding heat to try and boost the production of the Lacto & Pedio?
Lactobacillus can use a wide range of carbon sources, but it is highly strain dependent and I don’t know what strain of lactobacillus we’re dealing with. Presumably lactobacillus delbrueckii? In any case, published lab tests show that many strains of lactobacillus can use dextrin as a carbon source.
But to be honest, I was lumping brett in with the bugs. I should have been clear about that since it could easily have been lumped in with the yeast.
I seem to recall that pedio can also break down dextrins although much slower than brett or lacto. Brett might be the most efficient at tearing up dextrins but once the dextrins are broken down the shorter chain sugars would be available for the bacteria to consume to produce acid.
Pedio and lacto are morphologically similar and strains have been reclassified even recently. But within each classification there is variation, so I would say maybe the pedio can break it down and maybe it can’t.
You may be right about the brett being most efficient, but I haven’t seen any data on that.
EDIT TO ADD SOMETHING OTHER THAN SNARK
I thought this was interesting in context of this thread. (Emphasis is mine)
“[…]several phenotypic properties also distinguish P. dextrinicus from other pediococci, including the lack of acid production from growth on trehalose, production of CO2 from gluconate, lack of growth at pH 4.5 and the ability to hydrolyse starch and dextrin (Dellaglio & Torriani, 2006; Franz et al., 2006; Holzapfel et al., 2006; Simpson & Taguchi, 1995; Weiss, 1992).”
From that, here is where I got the idea of adding starchy water (which I did by just boiling water with some flour in it).
[quote]I also make seitan from wheat, periodically. The leftover starchy water can be boiled and added to a sour ale fermentation. I add wheat starch to the tertiary fermenter to prolong the fermentation. The starch haze seems to be reduced in less than 6 months.
Any mashing procedure for sour ale needs to balance three elements: fermentable sugars, dextrines, and starches. Fermentable sugars are consumed rather quickly and produce alcohol and some acididy. Additional acidity and Brettanomyces funk come from bacterial amylase acting on starches during aging. Dextrines are pretty much unfermentable (unless lambic culture is used including enterobacteria). Dextrines provide sweetness.
[/quote]
That’s some pretty interesting stuff. It appears he is saying the starch is fermented in a sour ale fermentation. Then he says dextrin is unfermentable.
Here’s the problem though - dextrin is broken down starch. They can break down and ferment starch but they can’t ferment starch that is already broken? No. If they can ferment the starch they can ferment the dextrin.
I agree that they can probably ferment down some dextrines. But, similar to alpha/beta amylase, aren’t there some forms of dextrines that aren’t reducible any more? I think that may be what he is referring to. (I haven’t taken Science since High School, so I am likely to be wrong)
I know that they can break down the starch. I had extensive starch haze in my flanders after adding the boiled flour, and after about 2 months, it was crystal clear again.
It is possible that they don’t have the proper enzyme to break the 1-6 linkages, but then they would not be able to break them in the starch either. Both starch and dextrin are made up of glucose linked through either 1-4 or 1-6 bonds, the difference is starch is bigger. So if they can break down the starch except for the 1-6 bonds, they can do the same to the dextrin. They will break them down the same way.
Alpha and beta amylase both break 1-4 linkages, they just vary in where in the chain they break the bond. Something like limit dextrinase will break 1-6 bonds, that is found in barley. Whether brett, pedio, or lacto has that or another enzyme that does the same thing, I don’t know.
