# Sour worting and heterofermentative lactobacillus. **URL:** \ **Category:** General Homebrew Discussion\ **Created:** [December 24, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945 "2015-12-24T16:03:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/1 "2015-12-24T16:03:20Z")
I have been fooling around with souring with lactobacillus as the primary fermenter in the carboy, then adding fruit and yeast to finish the fermentation. This time I want to try sour worting in the kettle then boiling, chilling and adding fruit and yeast. My question is regarding the lacto that I have. It seems to be heterofermentative (it creates lactic acid as well as alcohol and co2) since it has about 60% attentuation rate. If I use this in the kettle and boil for 15 minutes, will I be driving off all of the alcohol that was produced by the lactobacillus in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![erockrph](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/erockrph/32/13330_2.png) [@erockrph](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/erockrph)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/2 "2015-12-24T16:14:17Z")
Looks like you should expect to have roughly 40% of your alcohol remaining after 15 minutes per the chart on this page: > **[Alcohol Evaporation in Cooking and Baking](https://whatscookingamerica.net/q-a/alcoholevap.htm)** > >   Questions and Answers Alcohol Evaporation in Cooking and Baking Question: When you use alcohol in cooking a dish, how long does it take for alcohol to burn off?  Is the ---
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/3 "2015-12-24T16:52:04Z")
Huh. Interesting chart. I kind of assumed that alcohol was more or less immediately boiled off. I did a little more reading about lactobacilus on milk the funk at it seems like even heterofermentative bacteria should only produce a very small amount of alcohol, indicating my sample has been contaminated with some sort of yeast. Hopefully the new pitch I got is ok. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/original/1X/f1a2211dcb353b921ed70873794a31db2031eccc.png) [@system](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/4 "2015-12-24T18:27:32Z")
Wort does not need to be boiled to kill vegetative cells.  Vegetative bacteria cells start to die off at 140F.  Ethanol does not boil below 173F at normal atmospheric pressure.  One strategy would be to boil the wort, and allow it to cool to between around 100F and 110F before inoculating it with Lactobacillus.  The temperature of the wort should be held at approximately 95F (35C) until it is sufficiently sour before raising the temperature to 160F.  The Lactobacillus cells will be dead by the time the wort hits 160F. ---
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/5 "2015-12-24T19:09:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Wort does not need to be boiled to kill vegetative cells.  Vegetative bacteria cells start to die off at 140F.  Ethanol does not boil below 173F at normal atmospheric pressure.  One strategy would be to boil the wort, and allow it to cool to between around 100F and 110F before inoculating it with Lactobacillus.  The temperature of the wort should be held at approximately 95F (35C) until it is sufficiently sour before raising the temperature to 160F.  The Lactobacillus cells will be dead by the time the wort hits 160F. Great thanks. I hadn’t considered only getting it up to 160F. ---
**Author:** ![brewinhard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@brewinhard](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/brewinhard)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/6 "2015-12-25T19:33:48Z")
If you are just pre-souring in the kettle with lactobacillus, you probably won’t observe much of a drop in the OG prior to boiling it.  Are you pitching yeast after the kettle boiling and chilling to finish the fermentation off? ---
**Author:** ![duboman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/duboman/32/5890_2.png) [@duboman](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/duboman)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/7 "2015-12-25T21:58:47Z")
> [@brewinhard](#): > > If you are just pre-souring in the kettle with lactobacillus, you probably won’t observe much of a drop in the OG prior to boiling it.  Are you pitching yeast after the kettle boiling and chilling to finish the fermentation off? Agreed, I kettle sour my Gose with lacto, a few days at 90oF and I lose .01-.02 in OG ---
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/8 "2015-12-25T22:38:47Z")
How long do you boil for? Any DMS worries? ---
**Author:** ![duboman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/duboman/32/5890_2.png) [@duboman](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/duboman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/9 "2015-12-26T02:33:25Z")
After kettle souring when you get to your desired pH simply continue your process with a traditional boil, add your hops as scheduled and finish your wort as normal. Easy peasy:) ---
**Author:** ![reverseapachemaster](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/reverseapachemaster/32/19_2.png) [@reverseapachemaster](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/reverseapachemaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/10 "2015-12-26T14:19:04Z")
How do you know you have a pure lacto pitch? You could easily have yeast mixed in with your lacto. Unfortunately putting lacto pitches from most of the labs under the microscope exposes the presence of sacc and other yeast strains. ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/11 "2015-12-26T20:10:01Z")
> [@reverseapachemaster](#): > > How do you know you have a pure lacto pitch? You could easily have yeast mixed in with your lacto. Unfortunately putting lacto pitches from most of the labs under the microscope exposes the presence of sacc and other yeast strains. I used to think BS, they should be pure, until I studied up on banking techniques and found that you have to plate smack pack samples for singles before slanting… so why wouldnt you need to with bugs? That and I almost always get a 5-15pt drop in SG from pitching lacto to primary from a smack pack, and Wyeast says in theory it shouldn’t drop much at all. In a yeast smack pack you wont notice if your 1056 has .1% 1728, but .1% 1056 in a lacto pitch would show up by gravity dropping after it grew enough. My lacto runs a week at 98-100F which is long enough for a tiny amount of sac to grow up and eat some sugar. Having said that, I just ignore it and keep on trucking. ---
**Author:** ![brewinhard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@brewinhard](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/brewinhard)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/12 "2015-12-27T20:11:37Z")
> [@troybinso](#): > > How long do you boil for? Any DMS worries? I have done no-boil beers with zero DMS issues even with 60% pilsner malt. ---
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/13 "2015-12-27T20:22:12Z")
> [@brewinhard](#): > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > How long do you boil for? Any DMS worries? > > I have done no-boil beers with zero DMS issues even with 60% pilsner malt. From what I understand, the DMS starts to form as you raise the temperature of the wort, and then is boiled off during a rigorous boil. So I guess I am worried about a short, 15 minute boil, or just raising the temperature to pasteurization temps and creating some DMS, but not boiling it off. ---
**Author:** ![duboman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/duboman/32/5890_2.png) [@duboman](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/duboman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/14 "2015-12-27T20:47:09Z")
If you are kettle souring, once your wort reaches the desired pH or sourness you then proceed to the traditional boiling of the wort so dms production isn’t an issue ---
**Author:** ![brewinhard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@brewinhard](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/brewinhard)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/15 "2015-12-27T23:05:34Z")
+1.  You would perform a typical 60 or 90 minute boil based on your preference and grain bill. ---
**Author:** ![heavydeadlifts](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/heavydeadlifts/32/4314_2.png) [@heavydeadlifts](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/heavydeadlifts)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/16 "2015-12-28T01:18:45Z")
> [@brewinhard](#): > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > How long do you boil for? Any DMS worries? > > I have done no-boil beers with zero DMS issues even with 60% pilsner malt. Same here, I have done no boil where I go straight from the mash to fermenter with a pitch of lacto only, and I have also done a 15 min boil before cooling and pitching lacto… Never had an issue with DMS, however I have always used Brettanomyces in these beers, and Brett will convert DMS to other phenolic compounds ---
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/17 "2015-12-29T21:02:27Z")
I pitched a package of Omega Lactobacillus blend  [http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/](http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/)  in a quart of 1.032 starter wort. After 3 days at room temperature the pH is down to 3.48 (don’t know the unfermented pH of the starter). The gravity is at 1.028 so about 12% attenuation. I can’t make the full batch for a week or two. Should I put this in the fridge? It smells really wort-y and I am afraid of it spoiling. ---
**Author:** ![heavydeadlifts](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/heavydeadlifts/32/4314_2.png) [@heavydeadlifts](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/heavydeadlifts)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/18 "2015-12-29T21:15:08Z")
> [@troybinso](#): > > I pitched a package of Omega Lactobacillus blend  [http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/](http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/)  in a quart of 1.032 starter wort. After 3 days at room temperature the pH is down to 3.48 (don’t know the unfermented pH of the starter). The gravity is at 1.028 so about 12% attenuation. I can’t make the full batch for a week or two. Should I put this in the fridge? It smells really wort-y and I am afraid of it spoiling. Afraid of spoiling wort that you’ve already pitched spoilage bacteria into??? Kinda ironic… ---
**Author:** ![klickitat\_jim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/klickitat_jim/32/6601_2.png) [@klickitat\_jim](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/klickitat_jim)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/19 "2015-12-29T21:22:16Z")
> [@troybinso](#): > > I pitched a package of Omega Lactobacillus blend  [http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/](http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/)  in a quart of 1.032 starter wort. After 3 days at room temperature the pH is down to 3.48 (don’t know the unfermented pH of the starter). The gravity is at 1.028 so about 12% attenuation. I can’t make the full batch for a week or two. Should I put this in the fridge? It smells really wort-y and I am afraid of it spoiling. It’s a starter right? Keep it undisturbed and room temp till pitch day then let er rip. ---
**Author:** ![troybinso](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/brewersassociation/user_avatar/forum.homebrewersassociation.org/troybinso/32/4150_2.png) [@troybinso](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/u/troybinso)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945/20 "2015-12-29T21:46:42Z")
> [@klickitat\_jim](#): > > > [@troybinso](#): > > > > I pitched a package of Omega Lactobacillus blend  [http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/](http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/lactobacillus-blend/)  in a quart of 1.032 starter wort. After 3 days at room temperature the pH is down to 3.48 (don’t know the unfermented pH of the starter). The gravity is at 1.028 so about 12% attenuation. I can’t make the full batch for a week or two. Should I put this in the fridge? It smells really wort-y and I am afraid of it spoiling. > > It’s a starter right? Keep it undisturbed and room temp till pitch day then let er rip. Can I decant and step up the starter? [Next page](https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/sour-worting-and-heterofermentative-lactobacillus/21945.md?page=2)