Trying a 45 minute mash 45 minute boil then Brulosopher lager regimen on a German Northern Pilsto see how this speed approach will work Gotta run - this was a quick brew day before an Okto party today.
Looking forward to the outcome!
I’ve been using a 45 minute mash for years with good results.
A 45 minute boil could be a problem with pilsner malt.
If you do a vigorous boil and get decent boiloff it shouldn’t be a problem. For me, a 45 min, mash would more likely be an issue. Not becasue you won’t get conversion in 45 min. (you almost certainly will), but becasue for a pils I prefer the dextrin profile I get from a longer mash. It’s not a huge difference, though.
In my pea brain… at X temperature SMM is converted to DMS. The rolling boil drives it off because it is quite volitile. Its debateable precisely how much SMM is in the grain and how long it takes until its completely gone, making it impossible to create new DMS. I rather doubt that it magically always takes 90 minutes to convert all SMM regardless of cultivar or maltster. So, a couple ways to limit DMS is to boil uncovered, or with a condensation drip tube. But what about SMM to DMS during the time between flame out and reaching a low enough temp that its not converting anymore? It seems to me that how rapidly you can chill is the most important thing, if you are boiling for a short enough time that SMM still exists in the wort.
Of course, this is all just my pea brain putting together assumptions based on hearsay. [emoji6]
The other things to keep in mind is that the final boil gravity won’t be the same as with a 90 min. Post boil pH will probably be slightly different than with a 90 min. Color may be slightly lighter than with 90. Hard to get a 60 min hop charge at 45 min, it might need more hops to get the IBUs, and therefore it might have more hop flavor. Just stuff like that, seems like.
My pea brain agrees with your pea brain.
That settles it then, lol.
If two brewers brewed identical pils beers and one got DMS but the other didn’t, (assuming rolling boil and no lid which is kinda basic) my first suspect would be sensitivity threshold and/or lack of palate experience. My second suspect would be difference in wort chilling speed. If they weren’t identical, but merely similar, I suppose my 3rd suspect might be different maltsters/cultivars.
Yea, I upped the bittering charge by a third, boiled the snot out of it for 45, and speed chilled with a Hydra Chiller. Didn’t think about dextrins from a longer lower mash - this will be a pretty light beer, so maybe it will be watery…I will report back when it is done!
I think Denny was referring to reducing the dextrin amounts with a longer mash. When mashing cooler, it can sometimes take the enzymes a bit longer to fully break apart those last few longer chained starches into those easily fermentable sugars that our yeasty friends love.
A shorter mash would most likely leave some dextrins behind. You may or may not notice it in the final mouthfeel or body of the beer so please report back with your results. A pilsner is a great beer for this trial.
Yes, indeed I was!
I whirlpool at 180-190 for a half hour before chilling, and I think a lot of pro breweries do the same or longer, how does that coincide with what youre saying?
Why?
leave as much hot break and hop debris behind as possible.
But why wouldn’t you do that at pitch temp?.. You would get rid of even more break.
Would love to but can’t. Blichmann kettle with electric element and Hopblocker. I chill using two stage CFC.
I could try not whirlpooling and run immediately into the kettle. Been scared to, given some of the warnings
about clogging. Have had this system for 3 years now and have just resorted to this as my process but am open to suggestions.
Can’t help myself…
Running through the counter flow chiller back to the kettle shouldn’t be an issue with all the hop and break material. A plate chiller could be a completely different story. Keep on keeping on if what you do works for you.
I see Denny’s point now about the dextrins being in there because of a failed conversion, but that is kinda the point here - maybe it will counteract the dilution from the shorter boil… Or not! All I know is that it was a lower OG than expected and it is fermenting vigorously at 51F. If it is watery, I can blend it with some light ale or another Pilsner.
I’d have to look it up, but “they” say that SMM is converted to DMS at or above a certain temp. I think that temp is in the neighborhood of 180º, but not certain. So… what I am saying is that at <212º at sea level, you aren’t getting much rolling action to help blow off the DMS. So it seems important, if there still is a significant enough amount of SMM present, to get that wort below the conversion temp rapidly.
Now, if you are whirlpooling with a pump, like I do, like I suspect many pros do, it seems to me that is somewhat replicating the action of a rolling boil. Perhaps that helps reduce DMS to some degree.
When my boil is done I immediately start my whirlpooling immersion chiler. With my system, I have a temperature half-life of 1 minute. In other words I go from 212º down to half way to well water temp in 1 minute. In other words, I go from 212 to 130 in a minute. I have to be jonny on the spot to hit 170º. Usually that means shutting off the water at 185. If it drops to 165, I hit the flame again to get 170. Then I add my hops and whirlpool for 30 min. At 170 I’m not worried about SMM or DMS.
If it takes 30 minutes to drop from 212º to 170º I’m saying, potentially, thats a DMS problem
Gotcha - I understand now.
I knock down to 185 pretty quick before whirlpooling, though I am reconsidering my partially covering my kettle after the knockdown going forward.
Thanks for the clarification.