Step mashing and using melanoidin malt

[PiracyBC (PiracyBrewing)]

I plan on making a Czech pale lager. I know I should do a decoction mash for authenticity but I don’t want to spend all day brewing. I’m either going to do a step mash or a single infusion mash. So my question is do I still use the melanoidin malt in a step mash like you would in a single infusion? And what are good practices for a step mash schedule? Or should I just do a single infusion for 90 minutes?

My grain bill is:
10 pounds Floor malted Bohemian Pilsner
8 ounces Carapils
6 ounces melanoidin malt

my step mash schedule is:
122 f for 15 minutes
145 f for 30 minutes
158 f for 30 minutes
Mashout 168 f for 10 minutes

Boil 90 minutes

[denny]

Yeah, I would. Are you sure the malt you’re using is suitable for a 122 rest?

[PiracyBC (PiracyBrewing)]

There is not much out there other then what other brewers have done. Wayermann doesn’t really give you any information on the malt other then the general stuff. The only reason I’m doing a step mash is because the malt is under modified.

[jeffy]

There is not much out there other then what other brewers have done. Wayermann doesn’t really give you any information on the malt other then the general stuff. The only reason I’m doing a step mash is because the malt is under modified.

I don’t think that malt is undermodified. You might consider a rest at 148F and another at 158F and skip the protein rest.

[erockrph]

@jeffy

There is not much out there other then what other brewers have done. Wayermann doesn’t really give you any information on the malt other then the general stuff. The only reason I’m doing a step mash is because the malt is under modified.

I don’t think that malt is undermodified. You might consider a rest at 148F and another at 158F and skip the protein rest.

Yeah, the Floor-malted Bo Pils is still pretty hot, enzymatically speaking. No need for a step mash (at least for conversion requirements).

[denny]

There is not much out there other then what other brewers have done. Wayermann doesn’t really give you any information on the malt other then the general stuff. The only reason I’m doing a step mash is because the malt is under modified.

I’m pretty sure that malt’s not undermodified.

[PiracyBC (PiracyBrewing)]

I appreciate the responses, I will skip the protein rest. Just looking to get a decent czech pale lager without having to do a decoction mash.

[HopDen]

I appreciate the responses, I will skip the protein rest. Just looking to get a decent czech pale lager without having to do a decoction mash.

Or you can do a protein mash at the upper end at 131F for 15 mins  then 146-148* for 30 mins and finally 156*-158 for 30 mins. IMO no mash out is needed. Weyermann Floor Malted is somewhat/ sometimes slightly under-modified. You can scan the bar code on the side of your grain bag and get the analysis for that particular lot. Assuming you purchased a 55# sack. FWIW, I just did my first double decoction and am absolutely sure I will do it again. Added about 3 hours to my brew day.

[PiracyBC (PiracyBrewing)]

@HopDen

I appreciate the responses, I will skip the protein rest. Just looking to get a decent czech pale lager without having to do a decoction mash.

Or you can do a protein mash at the upper end at 131F for 15 mins  then 146-148* for 30 mins and finally 156*-158 for 30 mins. IMO no mash out is needed. Weyermann Floor Malted is somewhat/ sometimes slightly under-modified. You can scan the bar code on the side of your grain bag and get the analysis for that particular lot. Assuming you purchased a 55# sack. FWIW, I just did my first double decoction and am absolutely sure I will do it again. Added about 3 hours to my brew day.

Yeah this was more or less the mash schedule I’ve seen through posts and online research. Some starting as low as 122. I’m just looking to get the most character out of the malt as a can without decoction mashing. Not that I have a problem with doing it since my gas burner and kettle are right next to my electric kettle. One day in the future ill give it a try. Thanks for the response.

[lupulus]

There is not much out there other then what other brewers have done. Wayermann doesn’t really give you any information on the malt other then the general stuff. The only reason I’m doing a step mash is because the malt is under modified.

Weyermann FM is not under modified.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

[TechBrew (Richard)]

The Weyermann data sheet lists the Kolbach index for Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner as 36 - 44 % (https://www.weyermann.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/WEYERMANN_BREWERY_US_FLOOR-MALTED-BOHEMIAN-PILSNER-MALT.pdf). That spans the range from lightly-modified to well-modified, but it is not under-modified (< 35%).

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

Few maltsters on the planet in the 21st century produce any malt that is truly undermodified, and if they do, it’s not where you shop.

[lupulus]

@richard

The Weyermann data sheet lists the Kolbach index for Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner as 36 - 44 % (https://www.weyermann.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/WEYERMANN_BREWERY_US_FLOOR-MALTED-BOHEMIAN-PILSNER-MALT.pdf). That spans the range from lightly-modified to well-modified, but it is not under-modified (< 35%).

The Kolbach index should NOT be used as a modification index for malts.
It’s a great indicator within a barley variety but not among varieties. Some varieties are well modified at Kolbach 40, others only at 48.
If you need to pick one from a COA, best indicator is beta glucans; if not available use friability.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

[fredthecat]

i just got a massive dose of melanoidin in an andechs doppelbock last night. my mental note to replicate that, is going to be:

1. use munich malt 15 to 50% depending on what im aiming for
2. consider using menaloidin malt again for the first time in forever, probably 2 to 3%
3. drain off additional 15% of volume by adding more water to mash, then boiling that hard in a separate pot while the main boil is on and adding that in.
4. 60 min+ boil when im generally doing 40 to 45 mins these days.

i think thats about it.

[erockrph]

@fredthecat

i just got a massive dose of melanoidin in an andechs doppelbock last night. my mental note to replicate that, is going to be:

1. use munich malt 15 to 50% depending on what im aiming for
2. consider using menaloidin malt again for the first time in forever, probably 2 to 3%
3. drain off additional 15% of volume by adding more water to mash, then boiling that hard in a separate pot while the main boil is on and adding that in.
4. 60 min+ boil when im generally doing 40 to 45 mins these days.

i think thats about it.

I’d start with step 1 on its own, and make it Munich 2 malt. I’ve never gotten the flavor of Melanoiden malt from any German lagers. You can have too much of a good thing when it comes to melanoiden character (at least to my palate). Dark Munich malt usually does plenty without crossing that line.

[denny]

@erockrph

@fredthecat

i just got a massive dose of melanoidin in an andechs doppelbock last night. my mental note to replicate that, is going to be:

1. use munich malt 15 to 50% depending on what im aiming for
2. consider using menaloidin malt again for the first time in forever, probably 2 to 3%
3. drain off additional 15% of volume by adding more water to mash, then boiling that hard in a separate pot while the main boil is on and adding that in.
4. 60 min+ boil when im generally doing 40 to 45 mins these days.

i think thats about it.

I’d start with step 1 on its own, and make it Munich 2 malt. I’ve never gotten the flavor of Melanoiden malt from any German lagers. You can have too much of a good thing when it comes to melanoiden character (at least to my palate). Dark Munich malt usually does plenty without crossing that line.

Good advice. One step at a time. And agreed on melanoidin in European beers.

[rookie_l_a (Steve Ruch)]

I’m happily retired. Decoction and step mashing sound too much like work to me.

[hopfenundmalz]

@erockrph

@fredthecat

i just got a massive dose of melanoidin in an andechs doppelbock last night. my mental note to replicate that, is going to be:

1. use munich malt 15 to 50% depending on what im aiming for
2. consider using menaloidin malt again for the first time in forever, probably 2 to 3%
3. drain off additional 15% of volume by adding more water to mash, then boiling that hard in a separate pot while the main boil is on and adding that in.
4. 60 min+ boil when im generally doing 40 to 45 mins these days.

i think thats about it.

I’d start with step 1 on its own, and make it Munich 2 malt. I’ve never gotten the flavor of Melanoiden malt from any German lagers. You can have too much of a good thing when it comes to melanoiden character (at least to my palate). Dark Munich malt usually does plenty without crossing that line.

One can try to locate even darker Munich malts. Both Avangard and Durst have 40 EBC Munich malt, which is 14.7 Lovibond.

[erockrph]

@hopfenundmalz

@erockrph

@fredthecat

i just got a massive dose of melanoidin in an andechs doppelbock last night. my mental note to replicate that, is going to be:

1. use munich malt 15 to 50% depending on what im aiming for
2. consider using menaloidin malt again for the first time in forever, probably 2 to 3%
3. drain off additional 15% of volume by adding more water to mash, then boiling that hard in a separate pot while the main boil is on and adding that in.
4. 60 min+ boil when im generally doing 40 to 45 mins these days.

i think thats about it.

I’d start with step 1 on its own, and make it Munich 2 malt. I’ve never gotten the flavor of Melanoiden malt from any German lagers. You can have too much of a good thing when it comes to melanoiden character (at least to my palate). Dark Munich malt usually does plenty without crossing that line.

One can try to locate even darker Munich malts. Both Avangard and Durst have 40 EBC Munich malt, which is 14.7 Lovibond.

I haven’t used it yet, but I got some 15L Munich from Murphy & Rude malting this past week that I’m looking forward to trying out in a Dunkel sometime soon. It was cool to see a craft maltster that offers a direct-to-homebrewer online storefront.