100% Vienna

[mtnrockhopper (Jimmy K)]

@morticaixavier

wan’t porter originally brewed with more or less all brown malt? so in a way modern porter uses dark malts for color correction so more efficient, higher DP malts can be used for the base.

I’ve always wondered if specialty malts were more of a modern invention. It seems to me like it would be simpler for historical brewery/maltsters to deal with only one or a few malts.

Now we’re really derailed.

[stlaleman]

Reading the guidelines calls for “light reddish amber to copper color.” How does Negra modelo fit this description? I’ve brewed 100% Vienna Vienna Lagers that hit the light reddish amber (a decoction darkens a bit). For that matter I’ve brewed a Munich with 100% dark Munich that made an award winner.

[blatz]

@stlaleman

For that matter I’ve brewed a Munich with 100% dark Munich that made an award winner.

Yeah but appearance only counts three points.  If you’re light but clarity and head retention is good you’ll probably get 1-2 out of three of those points.  So if you nailed it otherwise it’s not a far stretch that you’ll get a gold.

I think the question here is why are the guideline ranges higher than the output one would expect from the traditional grist?

[wsoublo]

Here’s a 74% Weyeremann Vienna, 24% Rahr 2 Row, and 2% Caramunich III:

It’s an estimated 5 SRM.

[erockrph]

@stlaleman

Reading the guidelines calls for “light reddish amber to copper color.” How does Negra modelo fit this description? I’ve brewed 100% Vienna Vienna Lagers that hit the light reddish amber (a decoction darkens a bit). For that matter I’ve brewed a Munich with 100% dark Munich that made an award winner.

To add to the confusion, the brewer bills Negra Modelo as a Dunkel, even though it’s really just a dark Vienna.

[klickitat_jim]

Did you let him know he’s wrong?

[beersk]

@stlaleman

Reading the guidelines calls for “light reddish amber to copper color.” How does Negra modelo fit this description? I’ve brewed 100% Vienna Vienna Lagers that hit the light reddish amber (a decoction darkens a bit). For that matter I’ve brewed a Munich with 100% dark Munich that made an award winner.

You think the decoction really darkens it? I remember Kai doing a video and documenting the color of the wort throughout the brewing process on a triple decoction and he found that it didn’t really darken it (if I’m remembering correctly).

[euge]

I’ll add that NG was significantly darker in the 90’s.

[erockrph]

@klickitat_jim

Did you let him know he’s wrong?

No habla espanol

[fmader]

@erockrph

@klickitat_jim

Did you let him know he’s wrong?

No habla espanol

Su cerveza el dunkel es vienna oscuro, amigo!

Bam! Three years of buying the English version of the Spanish book in college paid off!

[johnf]

@erockrph

@stlaleman

Reading the guidelines calls for “light reddish amber to copper color.” How does Negra modelo fit this description? I’ve brewed 100% Vienna Vienna Lagers that hit the light reddish amber (a decoction darkens a bit). For that matter I’ve brewed a Munich with 100% dark Munich that made an award winner.

To add to the confusion, the brewer bills Negra Modelo as a Dunkel, even though it’s really just a dark Vienna.

It’s really a Dark American Lager in BJCP terms if you are considering sensory characteristics, ingredients, and production methods rather than tenuous historical links.

Shiner Bock is as much a Traditional Bock as Negra Modelo is a Vienna Lager. For that matter Warsteiner Dunkle (which is at least all malt) is more of a Munich Dunkel than Negra Modelo is a Vienna Lager but in that case the style guideline committee made a completely different choice in terms of whether or not a beer different than what was being described should be included as a classic example. I would argue the inclusion of Negra Modelo is the bad choice and the exclusion of Warsteiner Dunkle is the good choice but they are wildly different choices.

[euge]

No-one actually thinks Shiner Bock is a bock beer- even here in Texas. I think the 4A designation is quite appropriate.

[wsoublo]

@johnf

…the style guideline committee made a completely different choice in terms of whether or not a beer different than what was being described should be included as a classic example.

I find that there’s quite a few listed classic examples that do not agree with the actual beer style.

I often wonder if it’s because head brewers and subsequently recipes change over time, or the style guidelines were really that far off when they were last revised.

I mean I was graduating high school in 2004, and I’m not sure how many classic examples changed from the 2004 to 2008 style guidelines revision because I wasn’t really interested in judging beers during college.

[johnf]

@wsoublo

@johnf

…the style guideline committee made a completely different choice in terms of whether or not a beer different than what was being described should be included as a classic example.

I find that there’s quite a few listed classic examples that do not agree with the actual beer style.

I often wonder if it’s because head brewers and subsequently recipes change over time, or the style guidelines were really that far off when they were last revised.

I mean I was graduating high school in 2004, and I’m not sure how many classic examples changed from the 2004 to 2008 style guidelines revision because I wasn’t really interested in judging beers during college.

That is certainly possible but I don’t think it is the case with Negra Modelo, both because it is an industrial product and because I have been drinking it that long.

Their are other really odd classic examples like Sam Adams Light in 1A. I would like to think that beer used to be very different.

[klickitat_jim]

SAL has too much flavor for 1A in my opinion.

[blatz]

@beersk

I remember Kai doing a video and documenting the color of the wort throughout the brewing process on a triple decoction and he found that it didn’t really darken it (if I’m remembering correctly).

I recall that as well - didn’t he estimate it at maybe a half SRM if that?  where is kai anyways?

[beersk]

@blatz

@beersk

I remember Kai doing a video and documenting the color of the wort throughout the brewing process on a triple decoction and he found that it didn’t really darken it (if I’m remembering correctly).

I recall that as well - didn’t he estimate it at maybe a half SRM if that?  where is kai anyways?

I haven’t seen him post on any of the forums for a while now…it’s a shame with his wealth of knowledge.

[denny]

@blatz

where is kai anyways?

The last I heard from him, working and spending time with his family.

[dixonmike20]

1. Vienna is one of my all time favorite malts.

2. I would assume the decoction mash made them a little darker. But, now I have something new to research to be certain

3. BJCP, or at least some judges, can at times be a little petty with their grading. When I judge a beer, and color is the only thing off, I don’t mark down. The reason being is that I’ve had the pleasure of living in Europe and have seen very wide color ranges on the same style…and many of them would be marked low based on BJCP guidelines for color.
   Yet, they invented the freakin style.
   Never underestimate the ability of douchebags to tell Europeans how to brew their own beer.

[klickitat_jim]

I mark you down one point for harshness.