no smilies needed, but in case I needed some 
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
This is similar to the argument that “adding” sugar gives you a drier beer,
Swapping sugar for malt gives you a drier beer ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sorry I was so unclear. :
I tend to look at efficiency in light of the grain to water ratio in the mash. Often I will top off pre-boil for long boils.
It was a good discussion and now everyone understands boiling does not affect efficiency (and why).
Its a nice one-two punch, because needing more preboil volume lets you get more sugar out of the wort, which you need for those bigger styles. Probably part of the reason why the styles evolved as they did.
Someone just needed to adequately define “boil” in the beginning.
Theres your answer, you must have been stirring with a turkey leg. One coated with a sugary BBQ sauce.
I disagree. Overall boil off is part of the mash equitation and therefor also part of efficiency. At the point you stop filling the kettle efficiency is set.
Overall boil may be part of YOUR perceived efficiency, but not part of the mash efficiency.
Explain in depth…
I’ll repeat for what must be the millionth time…BOILING DOES NOT AFFECT THE EFFICIENCY.
The second part of your statement pretty much proves the point. You boil once you stop filling the kettle, so boiling plays no part in efficiency.
Boil off IS NOT part of a mash equation or equitation for those without a spell checker - therefore vs. therefor - less drinky before typy
For those that don’t understand, enter your recipe into something like Promash. Collect your runnings and measure you volume and gravity. Note your efficiency.
Now boil the living $hit out of it and remeasure your volume and gravity. Plug those values into the program and note your efficiency. It will be the same, unless you screwed up. Your volume has gone down but your gravity has gone up, however your efficiency is the same.
Doesn’t hot break dropping out, change the specific gravity of the solution at all? Not that we are counting protein in efficiency, but if you define efficiency by a specific gravity reading times volume then it would seem to have some small effect. I know my brewhouse efficiency is typically slightly lowe than my preboil, and I pitch trub and all in the fermentor. I figured it had to do with some protein being suspended versus dissolved.
I don’t understand what you don’t get. Longer boil requires more wort from the mash. More wort from the mash increases efficiency. Therefor the root of the increase is the longer boil. Can’t see the forest…there’s a tree in your face.
Without question, the volume of wort collected is what determines efficiency. What usually causes me to collect more wort is my choice to boil longer. Therefore this causes my efficiency to increase. I rarely collect more wort to increase efficiency.
But what ever the cause of the increased wort collection, efficiency is dependent on the volume of wort collected, not the length of boil. Even though a long boil is the cause of my increased efficiency the amount on increase is determined by the volume of wort collected.
The true cause of the effect is the boil length. I thought that to be understood in my first post in this thread but I was wrong.
It can be useful in big beers. Most of my beers are under 1.060. The 90 minute boils can bring my BHE over 90%. I’ve decided to top them off pre-boil. I am going to try to shoot for 80% BHE for every brew but still tend to hit 85%.
I don’t think that things floating in the wort (like hops or break material) will change the sugar content of the liquid, so specific gravity will not be effected. You may gain or lose final volume by leaving some wort in the kettle or not, but it still doesn’t change the efficiency.
Malt…let’s make it really easy…collect your wort…now we have an efficiency…boil a minute…same efficiency…boil 10 min…same efficiency…boil two hours…same efficiency…boil 5 hours…same efficiency…
Sure the amount one collects has bearing on efficiency, but the boil does not…whether you choose to boil for a minute or forever, the efficiency will remain the same.
Now someone later spoke about losses after the boil. The boil did not affect those either, it’s losses in hoses, to trub, etc. which may make it appear the boil had something to do with it, but in reality, the efficiency is EXACTLY the same pre and post boil.
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Malt - glad to see that spell checker workin for ya
I always check my efficiency after I’ve collected all the runnings and before the boil. To me it easier to gauge a dip stick in calm liquids, rather than boiling ones.
Sometimes I’ll check it again right before cooling, but guess what, it’s always the same. 
Right. The efficiency is calculated based on numbers obtained before any boiling occurs. If you’re factoring anything else into the equation then you’re calculating efficiency differently than what is conventional. And if you’re using more water to sparge than you normally would in an attempt to get more sugars out of the mash, you’re really decreasing your efficiency.
Then why does my efficiency go up when I collect more wort for my big beers?
Three pages of efficiency discussion without a single equation?
Kai has “some” equations on his page. ;D
I am with Fred on this discussion. If you sparge more, you get more sugar into the kettle. Longer boil and you lose the extra water.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency