Another Whirlpool IBU Thing

[toby]

@goschman

It is good to hear this feedback. I was under the assumption that more bitterness was extracted even at these temps. My current APA is wimpy and not bitter enough because I was too dependent on the IBU figure. It seems that I just need to adjust my bittering hops and leave everything else alone.

Well, you will technically probably still get some bitterness out of them at that temp, but as temperature drops, utilization (isomerization) drops pretty fast.  Once it gets below 175F, I would expect it has dropped to something on the order of a percent or two at most.

[TexasHumuluslupulushead]

@TexasHumuluslupulushead

if i were to enter this into the AIPA category the minimum IBUs is 40.  If the program I used is correct, the warrior additions in First wort were only 33.  If all the additions in whirlpool dont account for any IBUs, I dont meet the criteria for an AIPA- however after smelling and tasting it after racking to secondary prior to dryhopping, there is no doubt that its an AIPA…

Thoughts?

First off, there are IBUs that theoretically calculate at that temp, I just don’t perceive them enough to account for them. However the hop flavor obtained in the steep is big, so you’d definitely perceive that as a jump in ‘hoppiness’. Are you just tasting all the extra hop flavor that makes it taste IPA-like, or do you really feel it’s more bitter ?  +1 to Steve and Jon’s comments as well.

right on-  I do 100% agree there is a ton of flavor in this brew- and not a lot of bitterness… Its more so me just needing to put a number on it for an entry form

[TexasHumuluslupulushead]

@toby

@goschman

It is good to hear this feedback. I was under the assumption that more bitterness was extracted even at these temps. My current APA is wimpy and not bitter enough because I was too dependent on the IBU figure. It seems that I just need to adjust my bittering hops and leave everything else alone.

Well, you will technically probably still get some bitterness out of them at that temp, but as temperature drops, utilization (isomerization) drops pretty fast.  Once it gets below 175F, I would expect it has dropped to something on the order of a percent or two at most.

right on- for my whirlpool, i actually keep the temp between 172-178 for 45min by kicking on the burner from time to time- and throwing the lid on

[toby]

@dmtaylor

Experiments have been run by folks with no boil hops at all, just pure flameout and whirlpool additions, and they can still get tons of IBUs just from these additions if they use enough; they don’t taste unbittered by any stretch.  I might have to give this a try myself sometime.

That’s what Ted Hausotter does for his hop talks to showcase single hops.  He’ll send the hops and a pale ale recipe to a couple local brewers and everything is added flameout or later.  I think he mentioned it specifically in his AHA presentation.  (yeah just confirmed; see Class Beers slide towards the end http://www.bjcp.org/cep/HausotterHops.pdf)

[Brewday]

@TexasHumuluslupulushead

Thats exactly what i did fro thsi batch-  zero boil additions- only FWH and whirlpool

FWIW I don’t look at FWH any differently than 60 min from an IBU standpoint.  To me FWH provides the same level of bitterness but with less harshness, so I have them set the same in Beersmith.  But I realize others have a different impression.

[TexasHumuluslupulushead]

@Brewday

@TexasHumuluslupulushead

Thats exactly what i did fro thsi batch-  zero boil additions- only FWH and whirlpool

FWIW I don’t look at FWH any differently than 60 min from an IBU standpoint.  To me FWH provides the same level of bitterness but with less harshness, so I have them set the same in Beersmith.  But I realize others have a different impression.

I agree the bitterness is about the same, its just a bit more rounded IMO

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

@TexasHumuluslupulushead

@Brewday

@TexasHumuluslupulushead

Thats exactly what i did fro thsi batch-  zero boil additions- only FWH and whirlpool

FWIW I don’t look at FWH any differently than 60 min from an IBU standpoint.  To me FWH provides the same level of bitterness but with less harshness, so I have them set the same in Beersmith.  But I realize others have a different impression.

I agree the bitterness is about the same, its just a bit more rounded IMO

Can of worms tangent!  Heh heh heh…

[toby]

@Brewday

FWIW I don’t look at FWH any differently than 60 min from an IBU standpoint.  To me FWH provides the same level of bitterness but with less harshness, so I have them set the same in Beersmith.  But I realize others have a different impression.

Lab results show an approximate 10% difference, so if your 60 minute addition calculated to 35 IBUs, the FWH would be 38.5 but theoretically a ‘rounder’ bitterness.  I haven’t seen many side by side xbeeriments, though.  Marshall did one, but it was a relatively low AA hop he used.  I think he planned to follow up with a more aggressive American hop at some point.

[system]

I do not include the hops in a hop stand in my IBU calculation.

I may start doing this as well.  It’s only in the last year or so that I started doing “hop stands” by adding hops after chilling the wort to ~150F and then adding some hops in and letting it rest like that for 30 mins.

I’m drinking a beer right now that I had calculated to about 45 IBU but it doesn’t seem like it’s quite there.  the hop stand hops were calculated to contribute about 7-8 IBU.  Maybe that’s not enough or maybe my AA estimates were off but the beer seems like it could use a little more bitterness.  I still like it but next time I’d be inclined to add a few more hops at 60 mins.

[coolman26]

I’ve started calculating my hopstand IBU @ 5 minutes.  I feel it is pretty close.  Not that it makes much difference really.  I saved my last IPA and compared it my latest that just carbed.  My FW hops went to 60min.  I reduced the honey malt slightly.  I tried to keep everything else the same.  My latest has more pronounced bitterness.  I do think FW gives the more rounded experience.  In my IPA I kind of liked the 60 min better.

[system]

@coolman26

I’ve started calculating my hopstand IBU @ 5 minutes.  I feel it is pretty close.  Not that it makes much difference really.  I saved my last IPA and compared it my latest that just carbed.  My FW hops went to 60min.  I reduced the honey malt slightly.  I tried to keep everything else the same.  My latest has more pronounced bitterness.  I do think FW gives the more rounded experience.  In my IPA I kind of liked the 60 min better.

I’ve used FW a handful of times.  I’ve never done anything to try to determine if I like it better.  I know some people really like it - particularly for german styles that are less hop heavy.

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

I’ve used FW a handful of times.  I’ve never done anything to try to determine if I like it better.  I know some people really like it - particularly for german styles that are less hop heavy.

I find you’ll get excellent results from the German noble hops if boiled for 60 minutes – the FWH thing makes no difference.  These hops just love a long boil time.  But we digress.

[system]

For anyone who is interested, here is a paper involving the reaction kinetics related to the isomerization of alpha acids: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf8004965

Table #2 on page 6411 is interesting.

[dilluh98]

Good find, Mark. Based on this, an 80 C (176 F) whirlpool for 20 min (approximately my standard whirlpool conditions) gives ~8% total acid isomerization of a 60 min boil for the same commercial non-isomerize hop extract. Oversimplifying, you could plug in the value for 1 oz at 60 min boil, take 1/10th of that IBU and that’s about what you’ll get for 1 oz of a 20 min whirlpool at ~175 F.

[denny]

@dmtaylor

I’ve used FW a handful of times.  I’ve never done anything to try to determine if I like it better.  I know some people really like it - particularly for german styles that are less hop heavy.

I find you’ll get excellent results from the German noble hops if boiled for 60 minutes – the FWH thing makes no difference.  These hops just love a long boil time.  But we digress.

And I disagree.

[neddles]

I do not include the hops in a hop stand in my IBU calculation.

I may start doing this as well.  It’s only in the last year or so that I started doing “hop stands” by adding hops after chilling the wort to ~150F and then adding some hops in and letting it rest like that for 30 mins.

I’m drinking a beer right now that I had calculated to about 45 IBU but it doesn’t seem like it’s quite there.  the hop stand hops were calculated to contribute about 7-8 IBU.  Maybe that’s not enough or maybe my AA estimates were off but the beer seems like it could use a little more bitterness.  I still like it but next time I’d be inclined to add a few more hops at 60 mins.

Morty, it is my understanding that you are getting no isomerization at 150F so your lack of bitterness should probably be accounted for elsewhere, no?

[klickitat_jim]

@dilluh98

Good find, Mark. Based on this, an 80 C (176 F) whirlpool for 20 min (approximately my standard whirlpool conditions) gives ~8% total acid isomerization of a 60 min boil for the same commercial non-isomerize hop extract. Oversimplifying, you could plug in the value for 1 oz at 60 min boil, take 1/10th of that IBU and that’s about what you’ll get for 1 oz of a 20 min whirlpool at ~175 F.

If you use the same system, method, and grist/OG/hops as in the study. I think whirlpool hopping is one of those things where a brewer’s personal experience is far more valuable than tge results of a study. A % of utilization from a study is fine for a starting point. But be open minded and ready to adjust to your own experience. For me, 30 minutes at 170F with my tangential whirlpool going the whole time… its 0%

Another glitch is that calculated IBUs rarely match the actual IBUs when brewers send the actual beer in for a test. So, even with boil additions its just theoretical. You still have to taste and be ready to adjust.

[system]

@neddles

I do not include the hops in a hop stand in my IBU calculation.

I may start doing this as well.  It’s only in the last year or so that I started doing “hop stands” by adding hops after chilling the wort to ~150F and then adding some hops in and letting it rest like that for 30 mins.

I’m drinking a beer right now that I had calculated to about 45 IBU but it doesn’t seem like it’s quite there.  the hop stand hops were calculated to contribute about 7-8 IBU.  Maybe that’s not enough or maybe my AA estimates were off but the beer seems like it could use a little more bitterness.  I still like it but next time I’d be inclined to add a few more hops at 60 mins.

Morty, it is my understanding that you are getting no isomerization at 150F so your lack of bitterness should probably be accounted for elsewhere, no?

I was calculating it as some bitterness that perhaps I wasn’t getting.

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@klickitat_jim

If you use the same system, method, and grist/OG/hops as in the study. I think whirlpool hopping is one of those things where a brewer’s personal experience is far more valuable than tge results of a study. A % of utilization from a study is fine for a starting point. But be open minded and ready to adjust to your own experience. For me, 30 minutes at 170F with my tangential whirlpool going the whole time… its 0%

Exactly, Jim. It’s good info but it’s apples-and-oranges unless you use the same system. For me I don’t own a pump, so my ‘whirlpooling’ is walking by the kettle every few minutes and stirring it thoroughly. I’m pretty sure that’s less efficient than a brewery’s ability to whip the wort into a giant whirlpool. I just trust my senses and go with it.

[dilluh98]

I agree that your personal preference is what matters most but for a variety of reasons, sometimes brewers want a handle on the numbers. Mark gave a good basic reference for those interested. It gives a starting point for those who have little or no experience with whirlpool hop additions.