lol, i will set one on its side and give it at least 6 months perhaps. ill have to lookup the details of what the deranke people said about on-its-side, if its not entirely negative. i mean, there would be two potential factors? increased exposed surface area for oxidation or interaction with the bottle cap (im assuming the former), right? so you could simulate this but taking the widest bottle/container you could find, filling it with beer so it doesnt pass this widest point and giving it some time as well.
i just looked up De Ranke - are most of their beers corked? If so, I can definitely see how storing them would make a difference. Capped, not so much.
Found what I was looking for on cask conditioning. And, found that in one experiment, the tasters could not reliably distinguish between a force carbonated beer and a naturally carbonated beer. Yep, a single data point. But it is still valid.
I will bet that very few of us could tell the difference. CO2 is CO2. Bubbles are bubbles. Getting the right amount of CO2 is the challenge.
It may not have been De Ranke … I’m digging through my podcast history trying to find the episode. Unfortunately nobody posts transcripts with their episodes; so it’s like looking for a needle in a stack of needles.
I’ve also been reading thru the MTF wiki, and there’s at least some anecdotal reports that storing sideways with caps can be bad. Opinions on storing sideways with corks are mixed.
seriously doubt. especially when we’re talking about people with a lot of experience in achieving desired vols of CO2. and no getting a desired amount of CO2 is not a challenge for me anymore.
You should seriously doubt.
Just reporting what I find on other forums. Ok, we can doubt this info. The people involved reporting the CO2 data are highly experienced.
Good for you! Glad you are proficient at CO2 management. It is still a black magic art for me. But then, I do not cask condition, or bottle condition anything.
edit: My brewing friend and neighbor feels the bottle conditioned / cask conditioned beers have finer, smaller bubbles. Is Sierra Nevada Pale Ale bottle conditioned? I think it is.
One of the excuses I made for starting to invest in kegging was that I’d read (somewhere… don’t recall the source now) that kegging or bottling from a keg is better than bottle conditioning for beers that are going to be aged. Something about how sitting on the yeast for so long may not be ideal.
Why would force carbing be a problem?
Oxidation. Even at the pro level where they measure total packaging oxygen sub 20 parts per billion, most long aged beers are bottle conditioned. At home, you’re likely inviting even more oxygen in at bottling and without active yeast it will remain in the headspace for years.
Force carbonating in general also introduce more oxidation into the beer, even before aging, since bottled CO2 is not 100% pure. While this may not matter for a beer that you will keep cold and drink fresh, it’s not great for long aging in a cellar.
As far as I know, it’s the opposite. The yeast in the bottles will supposedly scavenge O2.
And ditto for the yeast in the keg.
Yes, although theoretically it can be more of an issue. Just like tall CCVs can exacerbate autolysis, the form factor of a keg makes that more likely than in a bottle. But it’s theoretical. Who knows how much difference it makes in reality.
If the yeast isn’t active (the beer is done fermenting), it’s questionable how much O2 it will scavenge. This is why spunding or priming a keg is the best way to reduce oxuidation.
lol, more importantly at least for me. i feel comfortable with my current method and letting the beer sit for long-term storage (maybe saving a few for years down the road). the method is adding dextrose boiled in ~150ml spring water for 10 mins and let to cool, then adding this to the bottling container and stirring gently. seems to create good beer that follows expected trajectories of taste/quality.
I managed to find my source: Zymurgy March / April 2022 “The Homebrewer’s Guide to Barrel-Aged Stouts” page 51
“From there, you usually want to drink these out of the keg or force carbonate them into bottles. It’s very difficult to achieve proper bottle conditioning with beers that approach and even exceed 13 percent ABV, and very few professionals even attempt that. And while these should be enjoyable for years to come, they are not going to improve drastically over 5 to 10 years as a good English barleywine or lambic often does, so avoid bottle conditioning.”
So, it sounds like this advice was specific to stouts.
One step at a time for me. I’ve come up with enough rationalizations for investing in kegging, so I’m moving forward with that. I’m sure I’ll start with force carbing, but this gives me a new goal.
This advice depends a lot on the stout. I have stouts well into that age range that are simply fantastic with age on them. Those tend to be the older style imperial stouts that lean more bitter and roast forward. Modern imperial stouts have high FG and loads of crystal malt. They are designed to be consumed immediately (especially if adjuncted) which is among the reasons barrel aged stouts have fallen by the wayside. At best they develop oxidized port-like flavors but typically they fall apart into a sweet oxidized mess. The same can be said for a lot of modern barleywines that lean towards an overly sweet, high FG beer. They don’t age well either. English-style barleywines are almost always on the sweeter side but generally not intentionally trying to hit 15% ABV and 1040 FG.
ended up carbing with an aim for around 2.3 vol co2. i added EEC(?)1118 to it after main fermentation in primary just to make sure. bottles are carbing up adequately after 2 weeks bottled. beer tastes very good so far. will post a pic soon