Chasing the perfect Munich Helles

[hopfenundmalz]

@hopfenundmalz

Tell us why 835 Lager X (Kloster Andechs), and 860 (some say it is Augustiner’s yeast) are not Bavarian strains?

• 835 and 860 are my favorite strains so far.  Bavarian strains (833, 838, 860) tend to produce a bit of a grape fruitiness, which I get in some commercial examples. WLP830 makes a nice beer, but is better suited for pilsners IMO.

I don’t believe I said they weren’t.

The wording can be interpreted that those are not in the second group called Bavarian.

[erockrph]

• the maltster makes a big difference.  I’ve done smash beers from multiple maltsters, cultivars and malting processes.  They all taste like pilsner malt but are subtly different, with some tasting more “german” than others.  They are all delicious, so enjoy the journey even if they don’t produce the unique character you are chasing for your perfect Helles.

• carbonation is often ignored.  A 2-3 psi variance in the keg at 32-34F makes a big difference.  Backing off just a touch tends to make the malts softer and produce more delicate notes.  I think this ties in with both overall pH effects and carbonic bite, which masks subtle malt notes as pain receptors on your tongue are overly stimulated.  I think you can see the difference by taking your helles and pouring one with the glass tilted so as not to off-gas CO2, and one using the traditional 7-minute pour where carbonation is driven off.  They taste like two different beers.  (Try this with a Kolsch too for that creamy mouthfeel.)  .

I know you mention that maltster is a matter of personal taste, but are there any that you prefer that get you closest to the Helles quality you’re after?

I’m also glad you mentioned carbonation. I recently rediscovered this style after finding some fresh, cold Paulaner helles at a local store and the softer carbonation jumped out at me immediately.

Lots of good info in your post - thanks for sharing!

[system]

@hopfenundmalz

@hopfenundmalz

Tell us why 835 Lager X (Kloster Andechs), and 860 (some say it is Augustiner’s yeast) are not Bavarian strains?

• 835 and 860 are my favorite strains so far.  Bavarian strains (833, 838, 860) tend to produce a bit of a grape fruitiness, which I get in some commercial examples. WLP830 makes a nice beer, but is better suited for pilsners IMO.

I don’t believe I said they weren’t.

The wording can be interpreted that those are not in the second group called Bavarian.

I listed 860 in parentheses as a Bavarian strain.  It’s in the first and second group.

[beersk]

@hopfenundmalz

@hopfenundmalz

Tell us why 835 Lager X (Kloster Andechs), and 860 (some say it is Augustiner’s yeast) are not Bavarian strains?

• 835 and 860 are my favorite strains so far.  Bavarian strains (833, 838, 860) tend to produce a bit of a grape fruitiness, which I get in some commercial examples. WLP830 makes a nice beer, but is better suited for pilsners IMO.

I don’t believe I said they weren’t.

The wording can be interpreted that those are not in the second group called Bavarian.

Agreed. I do believe that 838 makes a fantastic helles with Best Heidelberg, a bit of Best vienna, it gets pretty darn close.
Personally, I think crystal of any variety has no place in a helles.

[hopfenundmalz]

@hopfenundmalz

@hopfenundmalz

Tell us why 835 Lager X (Kloster Andechs), and 860 (some say it is Augustiner’s yeast) are not Bavarian strains?

• 835 and 860 are my favorite strains so far.  Bavarian strains (833, 838, 860) tend to produce a bit of a grape fruitiness, which I get in some commercial examples. WLP830 makes a nice beer, but is better suited for pilsners IMO.

I don’t believe I said they weren’t.

The wording can be interpreted that those are not in the second group called Bavarian.

I listed 860 in parentheses as a Bavarian strain.  It’s in the first and second group.

i missed that, do you like the grape esters? I find those in Bocks often.

[narcout]

@klickitat_jim

Wyeast 2352 Munich II, I’ve fallen in love with that stuff. Just my luck it’s a seasonal.

I like this yeast as well.  I have a pack in the fridge I am planning to use in a Munich Dunkel next month.

Beer and brewing did an article on it a while back.  The link to it seems to be missing or corrupt, but here is a repost of the article:  https://hellbach.us/blog/food-drink/beer/carapils-the-most-misunderstood-malt/

I did not know that; thanks for posting.

[system]

@hopfenundmalz

@hopfenundmalz

@hopfenundmalz

Tell us why 835 Lager X (Kloster Andechs), and 860 (some say it is Augustiner’s yeast) are not Bavarian strains?

• 835 and 860 are my favorite strains so far.  Bavarian strains (833, 838, 860) tend to produce a bit of a grape fruitiness, which I get in some commercial examples. WLP830 makes a nice beer, but is better suited for pilsners IMO.

I don’t believe I said they weren’t.

The wording can be interpreted that those are not in the second group called Bavarian.

I listed 860 in parentheses as a Bavarian strain.  It’s in the first and second group.

i missed that, do you like the grape esters? I find those in Bocks often.

It’s really interesting that you say that.  I used to associate that grape character with a malt ester associated with pilsner malt.  However, this summer I did a helles side-by-side (split batch wort) with 830 and 833, and sure enough the bock yeast (833) had that grape note and the 830 did not.  So, I’m leaning towards it being a yeast ester.  Interestingly, I also get it from kolsch yeast.

Yes, I do like it.

[JT]

The mention of this beer prompted a purchase tonight, though not in a can it is within date and was cold stored.  Delicious.  I guess I’m in the camp that needs to compare this side by side with other beers to find and put my finger on IT though. 
All in all, pretty entertaining and (at times) educational thread.  I officially have the German/Czech bug and will be brewing one shortly.

[atodd]

• beta acids are often overlooked.  I listened to a podcast with John Palmer where he said beta acids were more important than alpha acids for authentic german flavor.  I started paying more attention to the beta content in noble hops, and wow, they are really high compared to American and British hops.  I used to avoid low AA hops in favor of high AA hops, as I wanted as little vegetative material extracted as possible.  However, I noticed I enjoyed the flavor of low AA hop (Mittlefurh 2% alpha, 5% beta) that has more beta acids as opposed to using a very small amount of a high AA hop (Magnum).  The foam seemed considerably more stable and long lasting too.

I find this interesting and look forward to trying it, my first Helles used magnum at the 60 min mark but when I brew it again I will use a lower AA hop.  Thanks for all the great info you provided I look forward to incorporate it in my next Helles.

[goschman (Iliff Ave)]

@atodd

• beta acids are often overlooked.  I listened to a podcast with John Palmer where he said beta acids were more important than alpha acids for authentic german flavor.  I started paying more attention to the beta content in noble hops, and wow, they are really high compared to American and British hops.  I used to avoid low AA hops in favor of high AA hops, as I wanted as little vegetative material extracted as possible.  However, I noticed I enjoyed the flavor of low AA hop (Mittlefurh 2% alpha, 5% beta) that has more beta acids as opposed to using a very small amount of a high AA hop (Magnum).  The foam seemed considerably more stable and long lasting too.

I find this interesting and look forward to trying it, my first Helles used magnum at the 60 min mark but when I brew it again I will use a lower AA hop.  Thanks for all the great info you provided I look forward to incorporate it in my next Helles.

For a kolsch, someone recommended using noble hops for a huge FWH hop addition only. I had previously been using magnum. The change was huge and go me closer to ‘it’.

[stpug]

The term “it” for a characteristic about a beer sounds so dumb (and snobby) to me.

Ohhh, this beer has “it”.
I drank a beer last night that had “it”.
My beer is getting closer to having “it”.
“It” is too complex to describe in human words that I just call it, “it”.

If nothing else, says it’s that German quality or German character or kickass smoothness.

My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers

[hopfenundmalz]

Narziß has stated that German beer has lost complexity due to hop extract or high Alpha hops being used. Noble hops in three additions is what he advocates.
http://refreshingbeer.blogspot.no/2014/11/narziss-slams-state-of-german-brewing.html

[beersk]

@hopfenundmalz

Narziß has stated that German beer has lost complexity due to hop extract or high Alpha hops being used. Noble hops in three additions is what he advocates.
Narziss slams the state of German brewing

Interesting. I’ve been using magnum to bitter, the idea being using less of a high alpha hop to minimize vegetal matter in the wort.

[wort-h.o.g]

@beersk

@hopfenundmalz

Narziß has stated that German beer has lost complexity due to hop extract or high Alpha hops being used. Noble hops in three additions is what he advocates.
Narziss slams the state of German brewing

Interesting. I’ve been using magnum to bitter, the idea being using less of a high alpha hop to minimize vegetal matter in the wort.

many of us have done the same…

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

I’ve been the Magnum king for years on lagers, using the ‘vegetal mass’ argument. I need to start bittering with nobles again.

[jeffy]

@stpug

The term “it” for a characteristic about a beer sounds so dumb (and snobby) to me.

Ohhh, this beer has “it”.
I drank a beer last night that had “it”.
My beer is getting closer to having “it”.
“It” is too complex to describe in human words that I just call it, “it”.

If nothing else, says it’s that German quality or German character or kickass smoothness.

My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers

I think you’ll find that we all agree with you.  “It” comes from a dead or dying thread, kind of like It Came From the Swamp.

[mchrispen]

Fascinating!

[beersk]

@jeffy

@stpug

The term “it” for a characteristic about a beer sounds so dumb (and snobby) to me.

Ohhh, this beer has “it”.
I drank a beer last night that had “it”.
My beer is getting closer to having “it”.
“It” is too complex to describe in human words that I just call it, “it”.

If nothing else, says it’s that German quality or German character or kickass smoothness.

My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers

I think you’ll find that we all agree with you.  “It” comes from a dead or dying thread, kind of like It Came From the Swamp.

I refer to it as the German lager flavor or German beer flavor, as I referred to it in that thread that Amanda alluded to several pages back from 2012. It’s most present in lagers, I think.

And I think I’ll now stop using magnums to bitter…I do like first wort hopping though. So maybe a FWH and then an addition at 60 would be good.

[system]

@beersk

@jeffy

@stpug

The term “it” for a characteristic about a beer sounds so dumb (and snobby) to me.

Ohhh, this beer has “it”.
I drank a beer last night that had “it”.
My beer is getting closer to having “it”.
“It” is too complex to describe in human words that I just call it, “it”.

If nothing else, says it’s that German quality or German character or kickass smoothness.

My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers

I think you’ll find that we all agree with you.  “It” comes from a dead or dying thread, kind of like It Came From the Swamp.

I refer to it as the German lager flavor or German beer flavor, as I referred to it in that thread that Amanda alluded to several pages back from 2012. It’s most present in lagers, I think.

Indeed… My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers.

[system]

@beersk

@jeffy

@stpug

The term “it” for a characteristic about a beer sounds so dumb (and snobby) to me.

Ohhh, this beer has “it”.
I drank a beer last night that had “it”.
My beer is getting closer to having “it”.
“It” is too complex to describe in human words that I just call it, “it”.

If nothing else, says it’s that German quality or German character or kickass smoothness.

My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers

I think you’ll find that we all agree with you.  “It” comes from a dead or dying thread, kind of like It Came From the Swamp.

I refer to it as the German lager flavor or German beer flavor, as I referred to it in that thread that Amanda alluded to several pages back from 2012. It’s most present in lagers, I think.

Indeed… My beer has that “kickass smoothness” that you find in quality German beers.

Welcome back.