Classic American Pilsner

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@mtnrockhopper

I don’t think they drank anything approaching the hop levels of todays beers. Nobody was making hops bombs because hops were expensive (they still are).  But the lessening of flavor started long before prohibition too. Refrigeration probably freed brewers to use less hops because they depended on preservative qualities a little less.  CAP probably had bitterness similar to a german pilsner because it was german immigrant brewers who came here and tried to brew the beers they knew with local ingredients.

IPA is nothing like it was either. It doesn’t sit in casks in the bottom of a ship for six months before being drunk.

+1.  The German Pils comparison makes good sense.

[punatic]

I would suspect that the bitterness was adjusted to compliment the corn flavors.
Reinheitsgebot sagt mais ist verboten.

[AmandaK]

@denny

Amanda, I’d be in the same quandary if I hadn’t tasted Jeff Renner’s and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that’d be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty _{(read in Cleveland’s voice)} in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner’s CAP recipe?

[skatz (Stevie)]

@AmandaK

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner’s CAP recipe?

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

The formatting is funny, but there is a recipe in there. 80/20 6-row/flaked corn.

[natebriscoe]

@AmandaK

@denny

Amanda, I’d be in the same quandary if I hadn’t tasted Jeff Renner’s and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that’d be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty _{(read in Cleveland’s voice)} in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner’s CAP recipe?

Amanda I just happen to be bringing a fresh CAP to the meeting Friday, will be interesting to see if a Cap can be “good” without some cluster harshness.

[skatz (Stevie)]

Denny, you being the godfather of batch sparging, how would you handle Jeff’s mash schedule?

30 min @ 122
15 min @ 140
40 min @ 158
10 min @ mashout

Personally I hate step mashes in a cooler. Carrying boiling water isn’t my cup of tea. Single infusion at 150-151?

[klickitat_jim]

@denny

@chumley

Full Sail’s Session is a pretty good example, IMHO.

http://www.fullsailbrewing.com/session-lager.cfm

It is a good beer, but I don’t think it’s hoppy enough for a true CAP.

It’s the top example of 1c, but I’ll bet they’d like to be #1 in 2c also.

Nevertheless,  my question stands… having no commercial example in this style is really testing my OCD.

Since the style calls for native American hops, which there is no such thing, their native to China if memory serves, maybe this is a mythical beer and that’s why a commercial version doesn’t exist.

[hopfenundmalz]

@AmandaK

@denny

Amanda, I’d be in the same quandary if I hadn’t tasted Jeff Renner’s and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that’d be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty _{(read in Cleveland’s voice)} in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner’s CAP recipe?

I will have to get his current one off of the old laptop. It uses Cluster, which I think is not bad at all if it is fresh. You may perceive it different from me. Some don’t like Fuggles, I detest Nelson Sauvin. We all have different tastes.

[mdixon]

I did well at comps with this one.
http://carboyclub.com/recipes/cap1.htm

[gmwren]

I like my Pre Prohibition CAP with 40/40/20 pils/six row/flaked corn. I usually FWH Sterling and a late addition with Saaz and or Sterling. Not too much hop aroma, just a tickle. This is my go to summer beer when the IPA is just too much.

[jrdunne (Joe Sr.)]

@klickitat_jim

Nevertheless,  my question stands… having no commercial example in this style is really testing my OCD.

Since the style calls for native American hops, which there is no such thing, their native to China if memory serves, maybe this is a mythical beer and that’s why a commercial version doesn’t exist.

Jim,  I think you’ll need to visit Mr. Peabody and use the wayback machine.  Could be a good time.

[denny]

@AmandaK

@denny

Amanda, I’d be in the same quandary if I hadn’t tasted Jeff Renner’s and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that’d be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty _{(read in Cleveland’s voice)} in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner’s CAP recipe?

Amanda, I generally would agree with you (sorry, chumley) but after tasting Jeff’s beer with Clusters I can say it’s one place they really work.

[denny]

Denny, you being the godfather of batch sparging, how would you handle Jeff’s mash schedule?

30 min @ 122
15 min @ 140
40 min @ 158
10 min @ mashout

Personally I hate step mashes in a cooler. Carrying boiling water isn’t my cup of tea. Single infusion at 150-151?

IIRC, Jeff has modiifed that schedule significantly since the article was written.  I’d do 30 min. at 144 and 30 min. at 158.  hopfenmalz has mentioned that Jeff often uses polenta mashed in a pressure cooker.  Here’s a more recent article by Jeff Renner, updating his procedure…http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1298/SOzym00-Pilsner.pdf

[skatz (Stevie)]

@denny

IIRC, Jeff has modiifed that schedule significantly since the article was written.  I’d do 30 min. at 144 and 30 min. at 158.  hopfenmalz has mentioned that Jeff often uses polenta mashed in a pressure cooker.  Here’s a more recent article by Jeff Renner, updating his procedure…http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1298/SOzym00-Pilsner.pdf

Thanks. One extra infusion isn’t too bad and wouldn’t take too much boiling water.

[jeffy]

I’ve made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner’s recipe per Jeff Rankert.  It’s a Jeff thing.
I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.
Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.
Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.
Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.
Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU’s.
I used 2206 in mine, because that’s the lager yeast I had at the time.

[garc_mall]

Jim, Snoqualmie does a CAP for their Summer seasonal IIRC. That should have distribution through the whole state, and maybe in Oregon as well.

[pinnah]

@klickitat_jim

Since the style calls for native American hops, which there is no such thing, their native to China if memory serves, maybe this is a mythical beer and that’s why a commercial version doesn’t exist.

IMO, that is a misnomer in the guidelines.

There actually are “native American hops” for example Humulus lupulus neomexicanus. 
They are the wild common variety that occurred here prior to European settlement.

What I think they are talking about here are early American hops that may have become “naturalized”.
Cluster is one of these varieties still around today…but it still has its origins from whatever the settlers brought over and it gradually became known as the classic American hop…for use in the Classic American Pilsner!

[hopfenundmalz]

@jeffy

I’ve made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner’s recipe per Jeff Rankert.  It’s a Jeff thing.
I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.
Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.
Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.
Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.
Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU’s.
I used 2206 in mine, because that’s the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

[morticaixavier]

@hopfenundmalz

@jeffy

I’ve made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner’s recipe per Jeff Rankert.  It’s a Jeff thing.
I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.
Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.
Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.
Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.
Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU’s.
I used 2206 in mine, because that’s the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

old fashioned grits are pretty chunky. I know when I cook them they are edible at 30 minutes but they are still ‘al dente’ if you want mush it could well take an hour.

[hopfenundmalz]

@hopfenundmalz

@jeffy

I’ve made it twice, pretty much following Jeff Renner’s recipe per Jeff Rankert.  It’s a Jeff thing.
I used 20% Quaker old fashioned grits and 80% pils malt in the first batch which won awards and 80% 6-row in the second batch.
Mash in the main mash with everything except the grits and 20% of the malt at 148.
Mash the grits and the other 20% of the malt together at 156F for 30 minutes and then bring it to a boil for 60 minutes.
Add this back to the main mash to bring it up to 156 or so.
Cluster for bittering and noble hops for flavor and aroma - about 35 to 40 BU’s.
I used 2206 in mine, because that’s the lager yeast I had at the time.

Why the 60 min boil on the corn? I thought the small starch granules would be taken care of before that, I could be wrong. Are you after more melanoidin formation?

That is what I missed. I am using corn meal tomorrow, 20 min or so is good. The one time the club did a beer with grits from South Carolina - that was forever, about 2 hours. those were chunky!