And that’s my point, what is too much? I’m looking for a good ROT on % of sugar vs. OG or ???
Much of this style is based on perception anyways… 3F Dreadnaught and Dogfish Head 90m are listed as classic examples and they definitely have fairly high finishing gravities when compared to something like Pliny. I think that while malty character and dryness of finish can separate an American Barleywine from IIPA, that the main differentiation between IIPA and American Barleywine is the character of the bitterness which in IIPA, quoting the guidelines, may be “absurdly high”… the specific character of the specialty malt comes into play as well but I also think there can be a fair amount of overlap between the styles within their respective aging curves.
90 Minute seems different from when it was first put on the list. It’s sweeter now. Doesn’t really taste right. I’d expect it to drop down on the list in future guidelines.
I definitely think DFH 90 min is not a good example to the style. In fact, I don’t really like that beer much. Like I mentioned in my post above, this is the type of beer that feels like a session beer. Once you have one, you will usually want another. DFH 90 min is not in that camp IMO.
I do agree there may be some crossover, or some people’s opinions may differ on the amount of crossover. But too often I have these sweet and “thick” IIPAs that don’t remind me of what I expect a IIPA to taste like.
I don’t disagree. I prefer my IIPAs to spotlight hops with none of that pesky malt getting in the way, but here in the midwest, there seems to be a huge regional bias toward these other “lesser” ;) examples.
I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve had exchanges with seasoned beer judges who think that Pliny is too dry, not enough malt to back up the hop character it has, etc.
You need to experiment to see what works for your tastes.
What Denny said.
FWIW, I like this malt bill for a 1.080 IIPA, 5 gallon batch:
14 lbs. 2-row
0.75 lbs. caravienne
1.5 lbs, sugar
But, everybody has their own tastes.
I bought a sixer of a IIPA from a local microbrewery that I’ve never this weekend. I could tell right off the bat it was all malt…much too sweet, I could only drink one.
Ah. You must have gotten a UIPA (underattenuated IPA). They’re pretty popular based on the number of people who make them.
;D
;D ;D I prefer those like Ruination. Hoppy with a crisp dry finish, but you can still taste the malt. Pliny is tough to get around here, but I hear there is a place a little over an hour away that has it. Between Ron and myself, we’ll get some one of these days soon.
and you told them to turn in their judging badges on the spot, right?
Nice. Badge police here. Taking you in for questioning.
I think the problem people have with differentiating the styles is that they calibrate on bad examples. A crappy, underattenuated IIPA will taste a lot like a crappy, underattenuated ABW. That doesn’t mean the styles are the same. That means if you make them wrong, you can wind up with similar results.
I remember someone telling me that lambics had to have a lot of acetic acid in them because they had one at the Delirium Cafe and it tasted that way. I told them that they went an awful long way to get a bad beer. Even world class examples can be off if old or mishandled.
+1
I lived in Oregon and drank this 5 years ago. I live in KC now and we don’t get it but have spend a lot of time in Delaware the last couple of years and it is not the same. Hard to drink. I still like the 60 minute draught and it is ubiquitous in Wilmington.
Nah 
I just roll my eyes and move on to a different judge to harass about some other style.
I absolutely deplore syrupy, sweet IIPAs. They are too similar to am American Barleywine, and while that style of Barleywine (the hoppier, lower-bodied kind that is similar to some IIPAs) is my favorite kind of Barleywine, I do not consider that an IIPA and I never want more than 8 ounces of it. My IIPA tastes fall within the Pliny camp (though I have lately had a strong preference for “new school” hop profiles).
That being said, while I don’t mind using simple sugar in my beers, I don’t see the need for it in my IIPA. For me, the dryness is unnecessary since I use little to no crystal and no carapils and I mash very low. For me and my tastebuds, the caramel flavor that crystal adds to a beer just isn’t what I am looking for in my IIPA - I like a very clean, neutral malt profile with minimal sweetness and complexity. That being said, I also like my IIPAs around the 100 IBU range (Tinseth, on paper), and at around the 8-8.5% ABV range, which is at the lower end of the gravity range in the BJCP guidelines. I suppose if I was going for a 9-10% ABV IIPA, I would probably add some simple sugar to get it up there.
The BW I made on New Year’s Day tasted a lot like a IIPA after a few months, but now that the hops have mellowed it tastes like ABW(much sweeter). By the way, I used a pound of sugar. The first time I crossed two categories with one beer.