Low Oxygen Conclusions?

[kgs]

@narcout

@kgs

Water: “bring to a boil and hold for 5 minutes” – I usually get my water ready to boil the night before, so this step would be simple enough. Can this step be done a few hours earlier than the brew, or would oxygen sneak back in during the dead of night?

Mash: “drain wort into kettle” – sometimes I mash the night before, drain into the brew kettle, put the lid on and then turn the BK on as soon as I wake up. Would holding the wort overnight reintroduce oxygen?

SMB – sodium metabisulfite – to be clear, this is what’s in Campden tablets, right?

I’m not the expert, but I don’t think either of those practices is compatible with low oxygen brewing.

I believe some Campden tablets are SMB and some are potassium MB.  According to the original lodo paper, one campden tablet contains 440 mg of SMB.

Thanks. I think I must know a chemist or two to answer the first question.

[system]

@kgs

@narcout

@kgs

Water: “bring to a boil and hold for 5 minutes” – I usually get my water ready to boil the night before, so this step would be simple enough. Can this step be done a few hours earlier than the brew, or would oxygen sneak back in during the dead of night?

Mash: “drain wort into kettle” – sometimes I mash the night before, drain into the brew kettle, put the lid on and then turn the BK on as soon as I wake up. Would holding the wort overnight reintroduce oxygen?

SMB – sodium metabisulfite – to be clear, this is what’s in Campden tablets, right?

I’m not the expert, but I don’t think either of those practices is compatible with low oxygen brewing.

I believe some Campden tablets are SMB and some are potassium MB.  According to the original lodo paper, one campden tablet contains 440 mg of SMB.

Thanks. I think I must know a chemist or two to answer the first question.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No, sorry these are not compatible with Low oxygen. The whole mantra is to get in and out as fast as you can with as little disturbance as possible. You will be fighting against Henry’s law.

[kgs]

@kgs

@narcout

@kgs

Water: “bring to a boil and hold for 5 minutes” – I usually get my water ready to boil the night before, so this step would be simple enough. Can this step be done a few hours earlier than the brew, or would oxygen sneak back in during the dead of night?

Mash: “drain wort into kettle” – sometimes I mash the night before, drain into the brew kettle, put the lid on and then turn the BK on as soon as I wake up. Would holding the wort overnight reintroduce oxygen?

SMB – sodium metabisulfite – to be clear, this is what’s in Campden tablets, right?

I’m not the expert, but I don’t think either of those practices is compatible with low oxygen brewing.

I believe some Campden tablets are SMB and some are potassium MB.  According to the original lodo paper, one campden tablet contains 440 mg of SMB.

Thanks. I think I must know a chemist or two to answer the first question.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No, sorry these are not compatible with Low oxygen. The whole mantra is to get in and out as fast as you can with as little disturbance as possible. You will be fighting against Henry’s law.

I’ll set aside the early mash question. Thanks for SMB info.

if I preboil 4 gallons of water in a 5- gallon SS kettle, what is the formula for how much o2 is reintroduced over time? If I know this, it should be a simple if casual (aka non-rigorous) home experiment, given other available data and equipment.  The null hypothesis would be that over x hours o2 is reintroduced at quantities below recommended thresholds.

[system]

@kgs

@kgs

@narcout

@kgs

Water: “bring to a boil and hold for 5 minutes” – I usually get my water ready to boil the night before, so this step would be simple enough. Can this step be done a few hours earlier than the brew, or would oxygen sneak back in during the dead of night?

Mash: “drain wort into kettle” – sometimes I mash the night before, drain into the brew kettle, put the lid on and then turn the BK on as soon as I wake up. Would holding the wort overnight reintroduce oxygen?

SMB – sodium metabisulfite – to be clear, this is what’s in Campden tablets, right?

I’m not the expert, but I don’t think either of those practices is compatible with low oxygen brewing.

I believe some Campden tablets are SMB and some are potassium MB.  According to the original lodo paper, one campden tablet contains 440 mg of SMB.

Thanks. I think I must know a chemist or two to answer the first question.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No, sorry these are not compatible with Low oxygen. The whole mantra is to get in and out as fast as you can with as little disturbance as possible. You will be fighting against Henry’s law.

I’ll set aside the early mash question. Thanks for SMB info.

if I preboil 4 gallons of water in a 5- gallon SS kettle, what is the formula for how much o2 is reintroduced over time? If I know this, it should be a simple if casual (aka non-rigorous) home experiment, given other available data and equipment.  The null hypothesis would be that over x hours o2 is reintroduced at quantities below recommended thresholds.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Good question, I don’t know the answer as it would depend on the diameter of the pot. In our tests we saw 1-2ppm per hour based on a variety of homebrew pots.

[natebrews]

I assume that was uncapped, and covered (not that the cover is going to do a lot for you unless it seals up).

Along those line, if I deoxygenate with yeast then how long do you suppose I could leave it there before I start using it?  My guess would be that there is some comfort room in there since the yeast are still around.

[system]

@natebrews

I assume that was uncapped, and covered (not that the cover is going to do a lot for you unless it seals up).

Along those line, if I deoxygenate with yeast then how long do you suppose I could leave it there before I start using it?  My guess would be that there is some comfort room in there since the yeast are still around.

Yea thats correct.

~12hrs or so on the yeast method.

[bayareabrewer]

@braufessor

@riceral

Could you share the advise and what processes you used? Especially interested since you mentioned it took no additional time or effort.

These were the suggestions I received and what I did/will do:

I don’t know if you have seen the site, but its www.lowoxygenbrewing.com, its details everything pretty good, but the simple version is this…
Pre-boil all brewing water, then once you start chilling to strike (sub 200F) add some crushed camden tabs, if you have any ascorbic acid, cut it 50/50. If you are a sparger the dosage will be a littler different, than if you don’t.
Try and dough in gently, stir, but don’t whip in air. Underlet, all transfers( or be as gentle as possible). Fashion some foil as a make shift mash/lauter/sparge cap.
Boil softly, target more of a simmer, with no more than 10% boil off and 1srm pickup.
Ferment cold 45-47F, NO RAMP, pitch roughly 2x more yeast as you normally would. transfer to keg with roughly 4 points remaining, if you have a spunding valve use it, if not you can adjust carbonation when you serve.
It’s really as basic as preboil and dose camden, cover mash, boil soft, and naturally carb. Everything else is icing on the cake!
Any questions let me know!

I used crushed campden tablets (4 in 5 gallons of mash, 1 in 5 gallons of sparge). The website above ( www.lowoxygenbrewing.com ) is really good, really clear as far as laying out basic suggestions. I thought this interview was good/intesting interviewed on Fermentation Nation Podcast about LODO brewing http://fermentationnation.net/2016/1...th-bryan-rabe/

As I mentioned - I can only say that there were some distinct differences in the wort that came from this process.  Whether that translates in any way (good or bad) to the final beer is yet to be seen.

what kind of differences did you note? When I did the suggested mini mash, the difference was minimal and the LODO sample had kind of a raw dough note to it that was not particularly enjoyable.

[system]

@bayareabrewer

@braufessor

@riceral

Could you share the advise and what processes you used? Especially interested since you mentioned it took no additional time or effort.

These were the suggestions I received and what I did/will do:

I don’t know if you have seen the site, but its www.lowoxygenbrewing.com, its details everything pretty good, but the simple version is this…
Pre-boil all brewing water, then once you start chilling to strike (sub 200F) add some crushed camden tabs, if you have any ascorbic acid, cut it 50/50. If you are a sparger the dosage will be a littler different, than if you don’t.
Try and dough in gently, stir, but don’t whip in air. Underlet, all transfers( or be as gentle as possible). Fashion some foil as a make shift mash/lauter/sparge cap.
Boil softly, target more of a simmer, with no more than 10% boil off and 1srm pickup.
Ferment cold 45-47F, NO RAMP, pitch roughly 2x more yeast as you normally would. transfer to keg with roughly 4 points remaining, if you have a spunding valve use it, if not you can adjust carbonation when you serve.
It’s really as basic as preboil and dose camden, cover mash, boil soft, and naturally carb. Everything else is icing on the cake!
Any questions let me know!

I used crushed campden tablets (4 in 5 gallons of mash, 1 in 5 gallons of sparge). The website above ( www.lowoxygenbrewing.com ) is really good, really clear as far as laying out basic suggestions. I thought this interview was good/intesting interviewed on Fermentation Nation Podcast about LODO brewing http://fermentationnation.net/2016/1...th-bryan-rabe/

As I mentioned - I can only say that there were some distinct differences in the wort that came from this process.  Whether that translates in any way (good or bad) to the final beer is yet to be seen.

what kind of differences did you note? When I did the suggested mini mash, the difference was minimal and the LODO sample had kind of a raw dough note to it that was not particularly enjoyable.

Raw dough? Did you use Vienna and not pilsner? The reason I ask is because Vienna’s “it” is raw pizza dough. Pilsner will not have dough. It should have the flavor of cereals, like frosted flakes, corn flakes or maltOmeal… This is also the reason I am not really a fan of Vienna anymore…

[bayareabrewer]

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

[system]

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

[bayareabrewer]

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

When I make it to the homebrew shop I’ll pick up a little. Is there a reason I have to use it at all? Cant I just use some pils and call it good? Why do I need a specialty malt to see results in the mini mash?

[system]

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

When I make it to the homebrew shop I’ll pick up a little. Is there a reason I have to use it at all? Cant I just use some pils and call it good? Why do I need a specialty malt to see results in the mini mash?

No you are absolutely right, the reason for the carahell was because the Helles recipe contains carahell. Our defacto Helles recipe is 96/4 so the mini mash was presented to have the sameish ingredients as the big batch. You can certainly do pils only. For my curiousty, what pils do you have?

[bayareabrewer]

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

When I make it to the homebrew shop I’ll pick up a little. Is there a reason I have to use it at all? Cant I just use some pils and call it good? Why do I need a specialty malt to see results in the mini mash?

No you are absolutely right, the reason for the carahell was because the Helles recipe contains carahell. Our defacto Helles recipe is 96/4 so the mini mash was presented to have the sameish ingredients as the big batch. You can certainly do pils only. For my curiousty, what pils do you have?

briess and dingemans. I definitely prefer dingemams in most applications though. I would probably use that.

[system]

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

When I make it to the homebrew shop I’ll pick up a little. Is there a reason I have to use it at all? Cant I just use some pils and call it good? Why do I need a specialty malt to see results in the mini mash?

No you are absolutely right, the reason for the carahell was because the Helles recipe contains carahell. Our defacto Helles recipe is 96/4 so the mini mash was presented to have the sameish ingredients as the big batch. You can certainly do pils only. For my curiousty, what pils do you have?

briess and dingemans. I definitely prefer dingemams in most applications though. I would probably use that.

I have not used dingmans, but I have used the american maltsters. I didn’t find their flavor as pleasing as the German malts(take your pick, I hate bestmalz though, personal preference of course). It would be interesting to see what you got from that.

For your first mini-mash did you use the briess and the C20?

[bayareabrewer]

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

When I make it to the homebrew shop I’ll pick up a little. Is there a reason I have to use it at all? Cant I just use some pils and call it good? Why do I need a specialty malt to see results in the mini mash?

No you are absolutely right, the reason for the carahell was because the Helles recipe contains carahell. Our defacto Helles recipe is 96/4 so the mini mash was presented to have the sameish ingredients as the big batch. You can certainly do pils only. For my curiousty, what pils do you have?

briess and dingemans. I definitely prefer dingemams in most applications though. I would probably use that.

I have not used dingmans, but I have used the american maltsters. I didn’t find their flavor as pleasing as the German malts(take your pick, I hate bestmalz though, personal preference of course). It would be interesting to see what you got from that.

For your first mini-mash did you use the briess and the C20?

regardless of malt, I should be seeing a distinct and improved difference, right? I used dingemans for the minimash.

[braufessor]

@bayareabrewer

@braufessor

@riceral

Could you share the advise and what processes you used? Especially interested since you mentioned it took no additional time or effort.

These were the suggestions I received and what I did/will do:

I don’t know if you have seen the site, but its www.lowoxygenbrewing.com, its details everything pretty good, but the simple version is this…
Pre-boil all brewing water, then once you start chilling to strike (sub 200F) add some crushed camden tabs, if you have any ascorbic acid, cut it 50/50. If you are a sparger the dosage will be a littler different, than if you don’t.
Try and dough in gently, stir, but don’t whip in air. Underlet, all transfers( or be as gentle as possible). Fashion some foil as a make shift mash/lauter/sparge cap.
Boil softly, target more of a simmer, with no more than 10% boil off and 1srm pickup.
Ferment cold 45-47F, NO RAMP, pitch roughly 2x more yeast as you normally would. transfer to keg with roughly 4 points remaining, if you have a spunding valve use it, if not you can adjust carbonation when you serve.
It’s really as basic as preboil and dose camden, cover mash, boil soft, and naturally carb. Everything else is icing on the cake!
Any questions let me know!

I used crushed campden tablets (4 in 5 gallons of mash, 1 in 5 gallons of sparge). The website above ( www.lowoxygenbrewing.com ) is really good, really clear as far as laying out basic suggestions. I thought this interview was good/intesting interviewed on Fermentation Nation Podcast about LODO brewing http://fermentationnation.net/2016/1...th-bryan-rabe/

As I mentioned - I can only say that there were some distinct differences in the wort that came from this process.  Whether that translates in any way (good or bad) to the final beer is yet to be seen.

what kind of differences did you note? When I did the suggested mini mash, the difference was minimal and the LODO sample had kind of a raw dough note to it that was not particularly enjoyable.

When I did mine I used about 95% Weyerman pilsner malt, 3% Carapils and a couple ounces each of Cara Munich and Cara Amber for a bit of color.  I would say grainy in the sense of cereal would be a great descriptor.  Not “doughy” though.  It was not an overwhelming flavor, just very much different than what I am used to wort tasting like.  I am used to sweetness being front and center, with little else.  The kind of sweetness that almost hurts your teeth…  this had a nice grain flavor.  oatmeal, cracker, cereal…

[bayareabrewer]

if there was a difference like that in my two samples, it was minimal at best, definitely not a game changer.

[system]

Do you crush your own grain?

[bayareabrewer]

Do you crush your own grain?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yup, 3 roll mill.

[system]

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

@bayareabrewer

pils and a small portion of c20 in place of carahell.

I would retry with pils and carahell. C20 is going to skew things, even carahell is only ~10srm. C10 would have been closer, but I am not a huge fan of Ameircan cara’s.

When I make it to the homebrew shop I’ll pick up a little. Is there a reason I have to use it at all? Cant I just use some pils and call it good? Why do I need a specialty malt to see results in the mini mash?

No you are absolutely right, the reason for the carahell was because the Helles recipe contains carahell. Our defacto Helles recipe is 96/4 so the mini mash was presented to have the sameish ingredients as the big batch. You can certainly do pils only. For my curiousty, what pils do you have?

briess and dingemans. I definitely prefer dingemams in most applications though. I would probably use that.

I have not used dingmans, but I have used the american maltsters. I didn’t find their flavor as pleasing as the German malts(take your pick, I hate bestmalz though, personal preference of course). It would be interesting to see what you got from that.

For your first mini-mash did you use the briess and the C20?

regardless of malt, I should be seeing a distinct and improved difference, right? I used dingemans for the minimash.

Not having used that malt before I can’t speak to what it’s going to taste like. If you picked up dough in your first one I would say maybe not.
Maybe it’s not for you, which is a distinct possibility. Do you taste lingering fresh grain in a beer like bitburger or any mass produced and German?