Question regarding water

[wort-h.o.g]

@hopfenundmalz

@wort-h.o.g

@hopfenundmalz

@wort-h.o.g

@morticaixavier

assuming that get’s your pH where you need it it sound fine.

When I do a marzen I add some gypsum (Can’t remember the actual amounts) becuase I think that a dry, crisp finish is ideal for those styles. Plenty of munich malt will get you the malty character you want but the sulfate will help with the crisp finish. FWIW

Can the gypsum be added to the boil, therefore adding the sulfate (after the mash) but not changing the mash ions or ph?

well so if you add it to the boil, you cant impact the mash PH because that’s done and over with. it will change wort PH and will add the sulfates as mentioned.

everything you put in or take out of the mash impacts the mash -so keep that in mind when building your water profile for the mash.

The Ca drops the mash pH due to reactions with the Phytin in the malt, which releases a H+ ion which by definition drops the pH. I have never measured the boil pH when I add gypsum, any data that it drops the pH? I am curious, is all.

I have not and could be completely wrong in that presumption that it plays any role alone or in conjunction in lowering PH . I’ve added calcium chloride and gypsum in boil and only taken PH to make sure I’m somewhere in the optimal range for hot break.

Something I read:
Wort pH will fall from 5.6–5.8 at the start of boiling to around 5.2–5.4 at the end. This is primarily due to the precipitation of calcium phosphate. Calcium ions in brewing water reacts with phosphates from the malt to form calcium phospate and hydrogen ions, which lower wort pH.

This demonstrates the importance of excess calcium ions in the wort after mashing. For this reason, it is sometimes a good idea to add gypsum to the kettle. If your mash pH is fine, but the pH does not drop to at least 5.4 by the end of the boil, add 1/4–1/2 teaspoon of gypsum per five gallons.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, good information. I need to check kettle pH more often.

i think that the PH values referenced are a little off- seems most think hot break happens best at 5.2., and i target 5-5.2

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

Good info. I’ll be honest - I never check kettle pH. I always took the attitude that if I hit my target mash pH , then good pH would carry through the process. Maybe that’s a bad mindset. I just would hate to take an otherwise really good beer and make it less by tinkering with kettle pH. I’d like to see Martin weigh in on the idea.

[wort-h.o.g]

Good info. I’ll be honest - I never check kettle pH. I always took the attitude that if I hit my target mash pH , then good pH would carry through the process. Maybe that’s a bad mindset. I just would hate to take an otherwise really good beer and make it less by tinkering with kettle pH. I’d like to see Martin weigh in on the idea.

+1 need some chemistry expert opinion here. There were times when PH was a problem-both in mash and kettle. sometimes the hot break was very noticeable and other times not so much. thats when i started seeing what was going on during the boil. im sure someone will have some data around this that will help clarify (pun intended).

[quattlebaum]

@ynotbrusum

@AnimALE

Correct me if im wrong but doesn’t the malts have enough mg that there is no need to add any?

Always track pH and you will have decent beer, I am just trying to get to where some of these guys are at, which is consistently exceptional beers.  Time and patience, repetition and controlled environment, ingredients and yeast pitch are the keys for me.

1+ Well said

[mabrungard]

@AnimALE

I was thinking i might need some sulfates but i heard some where that sulfates will give the noble hops a harsh character…Is there any truth in that or just nonsense?

Unfortunately, that premise comes from someone who ONLY brews and enjoys malty beers. From my palate and from others, it does not seem that this tale is true. The sulfate level in the water for many fine German breweries is modest, but nowhere near zero. In addition, John Palmer confirmed from the noted brewing professor, Dr. Narziss, that even some of the Czech brewers crafting fine Boh Pils add gypsum to their brewing water. The contention that sulfate at moderate level produces a harsh taste seems to be nonsense.

Sulfate provides a level of drying on the palate that can be an important addition to some beers. Even a malty beer can still benefit from a low level of sulfate for this reason.

Now back to the OP’s water. The proposed level of chloride is a bit overboard. I don’t recommend levels that high for most beers. Substituting a modest amount of sulfate should be considered, probably around 50 ppm. The chloride level can be a little higher than that, but not much. And since you are brewing a lager, there is little need for calcium. Lager yeast prefer low calcium content. Only ale yeast needs a decent amount of calcium in the brewing water in order for that yeast to flocculate well. A recommended approach is to have about 40 ppm calcium in the mash and much less in the sparging water when brewing lagers. That will leave you with a preferrably low calcium content in the kettle.

With regard to pH drop in the boil, that is a common result. One thing I try to avoid is having a high wort pH into the kettle and needing to rely on an excessive drop through the boil. For many pale beers that aren’t hop focused, I target a wort pH of about 5.2 to 5.3 and that gets away from needing a big post-boil pH drop.

[quattlebaum]

@wort-h.o.g

@hopfenundmalz

@wort-h.o.g

@hopfenundmalz

@wort-h.o.g

@morticaixavier

assuming that get’s your pH where you need it it sound fine.

When I do a marzen I add some gypsum (Can’t remember the actual amounts) becuase I think that a dry, crisp finish is ideal for those styles. Plenty of munich malt will get you the malty character you want but the sulfate will help with the crisp finish. FWIW

Can the gypsum be added to the boil, therefore adding the sulfate (after the mash) but not changing the mash ions or ph?

well so if you add it to the boil, you cant impact the mash PH because that’s done and over with. it will change wort PH and will add the sulfates as mentioned.

everything you put in or take out of the mash impacts the mash -so keep that in mind when building your water profile for the mash.

The Ca drops the mash pH due to reactions with the Phytin in the malt, which releases a H+ ion which by definition drops the pH. I have never measured the boil pH when I add gypsum, any data that it drops the pH? I am curious, is all.

I have not and could be completely wrong in that presumption that it plays any role alone or in conjunction in lowering PH . I’ve added calcium chloride and gypsum in boil and only taken PH to make sure I’m somewhere in the optimal range for hot break.

Something I read:
Wort pH will fall from 5.6–5.8 at the start of boiling to around 5.2–5.4 at the end. This is primarily due to the precipitation of calcium phosphate. Calcium ions in brewing water reacts with phosphates from the malt to form calcium phospate and hydrogen ions, which lower wort pH.

This demonstrates the importance of excess calcium ions in the wort after mashing. For this reason, it is sometimes a good idea to add gypsum to the kettle. If your mash pH is fine, but the pH does not drop to at least 5.4 by the end of the boil, add 1/4–1/2 teaspoon of gypsum per five gallons.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, good information. I need to check kettle pH more often.

i think that the PH values referenced are a little off- seems most think hot break happens best at 5.2., and i target 5-5.2

I have noticed that when my " pre-boil" PH is 5.4 i get really fast hot break. Whats really cool is that if my pre boil PH is .2 highter my hot break is not a fast. I consistently measure my PH of the Mash, Pre-boil, post boil and post fermentation. Also i have noticed that my PH from pre to post boil only falls .2 of a points.

[wort-h.o.g]

Right…if you think that more often we have a mash PH in the 5.2-5.4 range for those diligently monitoring and controlling PH. If you were to have a slightly higher mash PH around 5.4-5.5, and your sparge raised it slightly, you could end up in the kettle at 5.6. Normally you’d drop about .2 on average so you would have a boil PH of around 5.4…and that’s not optimal for a good hot break. I figured this out when I wasn’t managing mash PH well early on in my brewing. Now. If my mash PH is targeted in the higher end, I will add a little lactic to my sparge water so my PH into the kettle is around 5.3, and end of boil it’s at 5.0-5.2. IME I’m getting a better hot break. I do think it’s optimal to control the PH before boil, and while I have read calcium sulfate can drop boil PH .1-.2, I think it’s more challenging to manage.

[quattlebaum]

I tend to shoot for boil PH of 5.4 to 5.6 for my IPA and APAs and thats to high as per most say on this forum but that just seems to make these styles POP to me. Pop i mean as in my finial beer PH is around 4.4 to 4.6. I know thats to high but that is the sweet spot for me. Even more interesting is that many of the commercial beers i/buddy have tested are in that range. I know but they have been tested many times with calibration and decarbed and all and they all finish higher than many recommend. Breweries such as teton, snake river and many others out here in the northwest. Go figure

[quattlebaum]

This is some of the results that my buddy posted on another forum.

All PH readings made at 77F or 25C on decarbed beer (Milwaukee MW 101 PH meter)
All FG readings made between 60F and 65F (This is not a precision hydrometer)

Ballast Point Dorado PH 4.63 FG 1.008 10%
Stone IPA 4.56 1.010 6.9%
Ballast Point Sculpin 4.65 1.009 7%
Snake River Pako’s IPA 4.85 1.010 6.8%
Odell’s IPA 4.7 1.012 7%
Caldera IPA 4.56 1.010 6.1%
Ska Modus Hoperandi 4.54 1.013 6.8%
Bear Republic Racer 5 4.5 1.014 7.5%
Deschutes Red Chair 4.4 1.016 6.2%
Green Flash West Coast IPA 4.66 1.010 7.3%
Anderson Valley Hop Ottin IPA 4.56 1.009 7%

[AnimALE]

@mabrungard

@AnimALE

I was thinking i might need some sulfates but i heard some where that sulfates will give the noble hops a harsh character…Is there any truth in that or just nonsense?

Unfortunately, that premise comes from someone who ONLY brews and enjoys malty beers. From my palate and from others, it does not seem that this tale is true. The sulfate level in the water for many fine German breweries is modest, but nowhere near zero. In addition, John Palmer confirmed from the noted brewing professor, Dr. Narziss, that even some of the Czech brewers crafting fine Boh Pils add gypsum to their brewing water. The contention that sulfate at moderate level produces a harsh taste seems to be nonsense.

Sulfate provides a level of drying on the palate that can be an important addition to some beers. Even a malty beer can still benefit from a low level of sulfate for this reason.

Now back to the OP’s water. The proposed level of chloride is a bit overboard. I don’t recommend levels that high for most beers. Substituting a modest amount of sulfate should be considered, probably around 50 ppm. The chloride level can be a little higher than that, but not much. And since you are brewing a lager, there is little need for calcium. Lager yeast prefer low calcium content. Only ale yeast needs a decent amount of calcium in the brewing water in order for that yeast to flocculate well. A recommended approach is to have about 40 ppm calcium in the mash and much less in the sparging water when brewing lagers. That will leave you with a preferrably low calcium content in the kettle.

With regard to pH drop in the boil, that is a common result. One thing I try to avoid is having a high wort pH into the kettle and needing to rely on an excessive drop through the boil. For many pale beers that aren’t hop focused, I target a wort pH of about 5.2 to 5.3 and that gets away from needing a big post-boil pH drop.

Wow good stuff thanks alot

[AnimALE]

Ok i would like to sum up everything i have learned from you all just to make sure im actually learning…So simply for a balanced lager shoot for around 40 ppm calcium maybe 60-70 ppm chloride around 50 ppm sulfate…This should produce a good beer i hope…Anyway just want to say thank you to everyone for the knowledge

[wort-h.o.g]

@AnimALE

Ok i would like to sum up everything i have learned from you all just to make sure im actually learning…So simply for a balanced lager shoot for around 40 ppm calcium maybe 60-70 ppm chloride around 50 ppm sulfate…This should produce a good beer i hope…Anyway just want to say thank you to everyone for the knowledge

well the calcium and sulfate sound fine. the chloride naturally wont end up that high (nor should it  be IMO) because the chloride is coming from the calcium chloride additions.

[AnimALE]

@wort-h.o.g

@AnimALE

Ok i would like to sum up everything i have learned from you all just to make sure im actually learning…So simply for a balanced lager shoot for around 40 ppm calcium maybe 60-70 ppm chloride around 50 ppm sulfate…This should produce a good beer i hope…Anyway just want to say thank you to everyone for the knowledge

well the calcium and sulfate sound fine. the chloride naturally wont end up that high (nor should it  be IMO) because the chloride is coming from the calcium chloride additions.

Right i gotcha…ok cool

[wort-h.o.g]

@AnimALE

@wort-h.o.g

@AnimALE

Ok i would like to sum up everything i have learned from you all just to make sure im actually learning…So simply for a balanced lager shoot for around 40 ppm calcium maybe 60-70 ppm chloride around 50 ppm sulfate…This should produce a good beer i hope…Anyway just want to say thank you to everyone for the knowledge

well the calcium and sulfate sound fine. the chloride naturally wont end up that high (nor should it  be IMO) because the chloride is coming from the calcium chloride additions.

Right i gotcha…ok cool

fyi i read your post wrong and thought you were saying chloride around 70ppm…that was calcium. chloride under 50 should be where you  land if you are using both gypsum and calcium  chloride to get your calcium.