Saison attempt

[klickitat_jim]

@mchrispen

Jim… I haven’t explored in this fully yet, but comfortable with raw wheat to about 10% grist in saison. It’s harder and harder to find these days. Plenty of flaked products at the LHBS. FYI,  it sucks to mill. You might soak it a bit before milling.

Thanks. I was wondering, I’ll bet its like milling BBs. I might hold off and then try a second batch with wheat malt.

[klickitat_jim]

@thirsty_monk

@klickitat_jim

I’m going to take a stab at a saison next. Do any of you saison experts use sugar to help push attenuation?

Here’s my very simple recipe
12 lbs pils
2 oz midnight wheat (option, im brewing one with and one without)
Mash 90 min at 145

90 min boil
1/2 oz Magnum at 60
2 oz Mittelfruh in whirlpool starting at 180 for 20 min

Wy3724 starter, pitched at 80º freeride to 90º

I’m considering doing the darker one as is, then a second batch with no color addition and subbing a pound of cane sugar for a pound and a half of pils

Thoughs?

your mash temp might be just a little bit low. I would not go below 148 if you do single infusion mash.

Leos, can you share more on this? I didn’t think 3º would make much difference. I’m not hung up on 145 though. Really curious what problems you are thinking I might have.

[thirsty_monk]

There is no scientific reason to my recommendation. I have never mashed that low. You are still in Beta rest area.

It just looks like that you will not complete conversion.

If you are set on 145F for 90 min then step it up to 150F for 20 min just to make sure.

[theoman]

+1 on oats an no sugar. My last saison had oats and rye and it was freakin’ delicious. Belle Saison got it plenty dry.

[klickitat_jim]

@thirsty_monk

There is no scientific reason to my recommendation. I have never mashed that low. You are still in Beta rest area.

It just looks like that you will not complete conversion.

If you are set on 145F for 90 min then step it up to 150F for 20 min just to make sure.

Ok cool. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something. I’m not stuck on 145. I’ll bump it up a few.

[morticaixavier]

Go with some raw wheat if you can get it. you could even toast it a bit. then cook  it the night before or overnight in the slow cooker. then get it to mash temp and add it right in. if you cook it long enough it will gelantenize all the starch which doesn’t happen well at 148 in the mash without grinding the wheat to flour.

Saison is one style where I feel you can get a bit more complex with it. I like a flaked or malted or raw non-barley grain, sometimes two, and some flavorfull sugar. If I’m brewing it fairly big (>1.070 say) and I dind’t have really characterful sugar available I might add some table sugar but I would more likely try to get some sugar within a few days of pitching yeast and then add it to the fermenter. This is a good way to use honey in saison as well, add it after fermentation has slowed to help preserve a bit of honey flavor/aroma.

[homoeccentricus]

If I’m not mistaken Saison Dupont is made with 100% pils malt, no wheat and no sugar…

[denny]

@klickitat_jim

I’m going to take a stab at a saison next. Do any of you saison experts use sugar to help push attenuation?

Here’s my very simple recipe
12 lbs pils
2 oz midnight wheat (option, im brewing one with and one without)
Mash 90 min at 145

90 min boil
1/2 oz Magnum at 60
2 oz Mittelfruh in whirlpool starting at 180 for 20 min

Wy3724 starter, pitched at 80º freeride to 90º

I’m considering doing the darker one as is, then a second batch with no color addition and subbing a pound of cane sugar for a pound and a half of pils

Thoughs?

Jim, have you looked at Drew’s article?  http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2499/MJzym08_Saisons.pdf  He’s kinda a master of saison.

[dbeechum]

I also got bored and decided to write this up:

A Guide to Saison and Saison Yeasts

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@dbeechum

I also got bored and decided to write this up:

A Guide to Saison and Saison Yeasts

Good info, Drew.  Thanks !

[denny]

@dbeechum

I also got bored and decided to write this up:

A Guide to Saison and Saison Yeasts

Hey, if you’re bored…

[klickitat_jim]

@denny

@klickitat_jim

I’m going to take a stab at a saison next. Do any of you saison experts use sugar to help push attenuation?

Here’s my very simple recipe
12 lbs pils
2 oz midnight wheat (option, im brewing one with and one without)
Mash 90 min at 145

90 min boil
1/2 oz Magnum at 60
2 oz Mittelfruh in whirlpool starting at 180 for 20 min

Wy3724 starter, pitched at 80º freeride to 90º

I’m considering doing the darker one as is, then a second batch with no color addition and subbing a pound of cane sugar for a pound and a half of pils

Thoughs?

Jim, have you looked at Drew’s article?  http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2499/MJzym08_Saisons.pdf  He’s kinda a master of saison.

That’s awesome! A guy could spend a summer on that.

[klickitat_jim]

@dbeechum

I also got bored and decided to write this up:

A Guide to Saison and Saison Yeasts

Thanks Drew! Wow this thread turned out awesome. I’m taking notes and looking forward to brewing these.

[klickitat_jim]

@morticaixavier

Go with some raw wheat if you can get it. you could even toast it a bit. then cook  it the night before or overnight in the slow cooker. then get it to mash temp and add it right in. if you cook it long enough it will gelantenize all the starch which doesn’t happen well at 148 in the mash without grinding the wheat to flour.

Saison is one style where I feel you can get a bit more complex with it. I like a flaked or malted or raw non-barley grain, sometimes two, and some flavorfull sugar. If I’m brewing it fairly big (>1.070 say) and I dind’t have really characterful sugar available I might add some table sugar but I would more likely try to get some sugar within a few days of pitching yeast and then add it to the fermenter. This is a good way to use honey in saison as well, add it after fermentation has slowed to help preserve a bit of honey flavor/aroma.

Thanks Jonathan! The crock pot method is a great idea.

[narcout]

I really like this recipe: http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-PetiteSaison.pdf

I add a pound of cane sugar and bump the gravity up to around 1.054.  With Wyeast 3711, it pretty much always finishes at 1.004 (mashed at 148 degrees).  I’ve been meaning to try it with 3724 or maybe a blend of 3711 and 3724.

[mdixon]

@morticaixavier

Go with some raw wheat if you can get it. you could even toast it a bit. then cook  it the night before or overnight in the slow cooker. then get it to mash temp and add it right in. if you cook it long enough it will gelantenize all the starch which doesn’t happen well at 148 in the mash without grinding the wheat to flour.

Many moons ago I looked at the gelatinization temps for wheat and what I found is it all depends upon the type of wheat. I wish I could find that info, but IIRC a few types gelatinize at standard mash temps and many require a higher temp. My suggestion with cracked raw wheat is just to boil it.

[morticaixavier]

@mdixon

@morticaixavier

Go with some raw wheat if you can get it. you could even toast it a bit. then cook  it the night before or overnight in the slow cooker. then get it to mash temp and add it right in. if you cook it long enough it will gelantenize all the starch which doesn’t happen well at 148 in the mash without grinding the wheat to flour.

Many moons ago I looked at the gelatinization temps for wheat and what I found is it all depends upon the type of wheat. I wish I could find that info, but IIRC a few types gelatinize at standard mash temps and many require a higher temp. My suggestion with cracked raw wheat is just to boil it.

I think I looked it up at one point after you commented on another thread. the conclusion I came to is it will work but all the tests were on flour rather than grits.

[duboman]

A little late to the party but I thought I would throw this out there as it’s a bit untraditional. I use 80% golden promise along with about 13% rye and 6.5% plain table sugar in my Rye Saison.

I like the flavor of the Golden Promise in combination with the rye along with Saaz and Saphir hops, makes a really tasty beer that’s fermented with 3711.

The last batch I dry hopped with 3oz of Nelson and I am really happy with the way it came out.

[pete_baker (pete b)]

I like rye in a saison. I often do use sugar. I almost feel like I can’t screw up a saison. Saison yeast plus malt with or without sugar just wants to be delicious. But lots of good info  on this thread.

[goschman (Iliff Ave)]

I like rye in a saison. I often do use sugar. I almost feel like I can’t screw up a saison. Saison yeast plus malt with or without sugar just wants to be delicious. But lots of good info  on this thread.

Yeah it seems that as long as you have the right yeast it is hard to make a bad saison. I normally go with pils, munich, flaked wheat, and some sugar but would like to try some rye and possibly oats in the next batch. 3711 is my go to but I think I am going to give belle saison a shot.