I like my Pils hoppy, which is why I brew this one to get close to Jever (hands-down my fav Pils, both in Germany and when I can find it here)… it certainly blows Bitburger away with its hop level, but perhaps I just went overboard on everything a little (too long a mash, too many sulfates, a few too many hops) and it is all just adding up to more than I like…
I tried a little blending experiment this afternoon with canned Bitburger and at 25% Bit, it’s passable, and at 50% Bit, it’s fine. I have a Helles ready in a few weeks and I may try a blend of that, although if the Helles is real good I won’t want to use it up too quickly…
Because that’s what it tastes like to me and a lot of others. Chemical changes happens to the hops as they steep that affect the way the bitterness is perceived.
nope, they measure about 10% more IBU than the same amount as a 60 min. addition. I don’t know about you, but I’m more interested in how the beer tastes than how it measures.
I’m with blatz on the FWHing. To my tastebuds, a FWH comes across with almost the same bitterness as a 60 minute addition. Some beers I brew only have one hop addition, a single FWH addition, that balances the BU/GU ratio and they’ve come out tasting balanced for their style. I’ve actually brewed a denny recipe - waldo lake amber - with the cascade fwh calculated as a 20 minute addition and the beer came out much more bitter than I had expected/hoped/assumed. I rebrewed this again a couple months ago with the cascade added at 20 minutes, instead of fwh, and it was much more to my expectations. BUT, I also realize everyone experiences beer somewhat differently so it’s no surprise that FWH don’t work on me the same way they work on, say, Denny. That’s cool. I guess it’s one of those “try and see for yourself” things.
For clarity, are you guys talking about the IBU calculation - as opposed to the amount of hops added for the comparison? In other words, the IBU’s are the same for both methods, not the amount of hops added, but the perceived bitterness is what is different between beers with the same IBU’s (as calculated)? Maybe I’m not articulating it well, so forgive me if I am confusing the meanings here. Just trying to gain clarity. Thanks.
Sure, that’s fine…that’s why we all brew to taste. But it seems slim evidence to say that FWH being considered the same bitterness as a 20 min. addition is BS.
I perceive FWH as closer to a 60 minute addition. While I think the bitterness (depending on hops used ) can seem a little more rounded, I perceive it as over 20 minutes regardless. But I think as long as you work FWH into your system (and palate) and can hit the bitterness you want consistently, it probably doesn’t matter what time value you assign anyway.
If you look at the link I posted, I split a batch of wort. One half got an oz. of Cascade at 60. The other half got and oz. of the same Cascade as FWH. All other parameters were the same. I had the beers analyzed and the FWH only beer measured as 10% more IBU than the 60 min. only beer. Then a blind triangle tasting was held. Although it was not unanimous by any means, most tasters found that the FWH only beer tasted less bitter.
I have done the same thing but using FWH and a 20 min. addition as the only hops in the beer. In this case, there was no rigorous test. Only me comparing the beers. But to my tastes, the amount and quality of bitterness was as close to identical as I could tell.
Paul said he preferred the bittering he got from FWH as opposed to a 60 min. addition. While that’s not what we were debating, I find it interesting that he preferred the FWH. Could it be because the bitterness was less harsh and possibly more in line with the bitterness you get from a 20 min. addition? I dunno.
Extrapolating then, would the FWH calculated addition at 10% less hops than the amount added to the 60 min batch still be more bitter, but smoother? And what if compared to a 20 minute only addition? May be questions to try in a split batch going three ways…sounds like something I may have to try.
I’m allowed to have the opinion, based on my own experience, that something is BS. I don’t recall seeing any evidence that it should be treated as a 20 minute addition either. I bought in to the 20 min mantra for years, that every forum member regurgitates, and was never happy with the result, particularly when using very high alpha hops. When i use it as a full boil addition +10% and just appreciate that it will be a smoother bitterness, I’ve had greater success.
I also interpret your 2008 conclusions the same - no where do you conclude that the FWH is better calculated as a 20 minute addition. On the contrary, the conclusion is EXACTLY what my own brewing experience has been - that the FWH beer has a smoother bitterness than the same exact amount/type of hop used during the boil.
Perhaps the experiment should have been using 1oz of Cascade at 20min versus using 1oz of Cascade FWH to more effectively prove your assertion that it should be treated as a 20 min addition. Personally, I’m not interested in making a 12ibu dortmunder, that I KNOW will taste like a 12IBU dortmunder, to find out.
Edit - you should actually test with a very high alpha hop, since the difference in a 20min vs FWH of say cascade is only like 12ibus, whereas simcoe it would be over 30.
I’d try to hit it with finings and lager it longer to see if I could drop some of the tannins. Maybe that might smooth it out a bit.
I’m not all that crazy of the flavors that Noble hops give once they start getting up there into IPA level IBU territory. Below about 40 IBUs, love them! But there’s just something about them once they get up there above about 45 IBUs or so that gives off a bitterness/flavor combination that i can’t put my finger on but I just don’t like.
Once I had an APA that was 35.6 Tinseth. I switched it to Rager which dropped it to 35.1 and it was much better.
Sorry attempt at humor. I’m just curious is FWH shouldn’t just be calculated as FWH. Pick wherever time you wish (20, 60, 90, whichever) and stick with it so you can adjust on the next batch. In my opinion, the IBU number on your recipe won’t change the flavor much. About as much as changing it from Tinseth to Rager.
I think there is a lot more to hop bitterness than simply IBUs. Bitterness “quality”(rough vs smooth) is almost as important as “quantity” (IBUs), particularly in hoppy beers. I think there is a lot of variance in perception of these factors as well.
My current house IPA measured 98 IBU in a lab. It uses all flameout/whirlpool hops (no boil additions). When I drink it on its own, it tastes like 60 IBUs, with a smooth bitterness. When I drink it with food it tastes like 100 tongue-clinging IBUs and completely blows out my palate. Same beer, two different perceptions even to the same person.
By calculating FWH as a 20 minute addition, I see it as trying to approximate the bittering quality by adjusting the bittering quantity (IBU) calculation. And it also approximates the additional flavor contribution from the FWH.
The thing is, I’m starting to think that this approximation isn’t really doing what I want it to do. Personally, I’m starting to look at each of my hop additions individually instead of my total IBUs for a beer. Since I’ve moved to adding all my late hops at flameout, that’s a fairly simple approach for me.