The FG has been consistently 1.014 down from 1.065 - roughly in line with Treehouse Julius. I’ve found it harder to get to that 1.014 with Conan than I can with Yeast 1318.
On the Columbus, that’s interesting. I was wondering if I should switch that up but as I said before I only used 0.1 oz of Columbus at 60 minutes for a whopping 3 IBU. I do that just to keep foaming down…not sure if it actually does anything. And yes, I’ve been using Columbus (or CTZ) in all of these beers. I’m pretty sure it’s Trillium’s bittering hop as well.
On the sparging comment, you may be right. I used to be careful about adding ONLY the amount of sparge water from my HLT during my fly sparge. However, recently I’ve just set the pump from MT to Kettle to roughly the same rate as the pump from the HLT to MT. Then I just turn them both off when I’ve hit my pre-boil volume. I may be transferring too much high PH (7.5) RO water into the Mash Tun and throwing off the PH. Not sure about the final runnings of the mash…difficult to measure because it’s getting pushed around with pumps. I can measure it next time though.
As for the comment about NE IPAs and PH, it’s interesting. Bissell has some hand-written notes in their bathroom that show Substance getting Citric acid additions in the mash, sparge (last 40 gallons only), and kettle. Targeting a mash PH of 5.37. Not sure if the citric acid is there so much for dropping the PH of the beer or making the water chemistry right.
The BJCP suggestion is a great one. I will keep that in mind for sure. Thanks!
To net this out I think I may have a few things fighting against me:
1. Big hop stands at too high of a temp
2. Too large of a dry hop
3. Too much sparge water
If .1 Oz of any hop causes an astringency, there is a ph issue. A high preboil ph would tell you the the sparge is to alkaline or over sparged (which both are a high ph problem). Assuming the mash is what you think it is.
I don’t think the ph of the RO is that big of a deal. The minerals in the mash will have a much bigger effect. I think you are over sparging. Stop a gallon short next batch and add that gallon straight to the kettle.
Easy way to find out taste the wort before and after the first hop addition.
Acidification of the sparge water would minimize the effects of oversparging (which effects are caused by a high ph).
If the fear is the sparge, take some hydrometer readings as it runs off and stop if you reach 1.010, then adding the water straight to the kettle to get to the desired pre-boil volume.
Or as Denny says - do like him and batch sparge it (I do).
^^^. Good advice on both counts. I used to fly sparge and got frustrated at times with astringency. Batch sparging is an easy switch and much less sensitive to pH issues.
Maybe I’m missing something. I don’t understand why fly sparging would cause any more astringency than batch sparging. At the end of the day, you’re rinsing the sugar from the grains regardless of the approach. I understand that you could drive astringency with fly sparging through high alkalinity/PH in the water and/or by over-sparging. However, wouldn’t the same hold true for batch sparging?
Batch sparging also eliminated astringency in my beers.
There is an episode of Chop & Brew that is a presentation by John Kimmich about Heady Topper- in it he says that its a beer that is brewed using only the highest gravity runnings of the mash. His wort making process alone would never be accepted by a large-scale operation because it leaves so much sugar behind in the mash; nevermind the costs of the hopping rates he employs.
I think a lot of homebrewers spend time chasing high efficiency at the costs of risk of astringency and (in some cases) very inconsistent efficiency from one batch to the next. For me batch sparging is both efficient enough and completely consistent; which makes my brewing much more fun than it was when fly sparging.
Gonna throw a wrench in this whole batch sparging reduces pH concerns. I get the science, less time for the reaction to occur, but it depends on your water. With my 90ppm alkalinity water, batch sparging is no different than fly in terms of pH. I have the data to back it up. Also, acidifying sparge does more than eliminate tannin extraction, it drives the overall wort pH down and once you start comparing your final pH to your favorite commercial beers, you will realize you need more acid in your process than you once thought. OP did himself a huge favor looking at this already.
If it is astringency it is from polyphenols, polyclar will fix that in a snap. Like I said tho, astringency I think is more a puckering/drying the tongue feel and back of the throat is classic high coho hop (some guys love this). Most likely it was a combo of all, long sparge, iffy RO water, and the CTZ.
I always thought the science behind this was that by introducing all your sparge water at once, you hit a single point for your pH - as long as this is below the point where you start extracting tannins, then you’re in the clear. With fly sparging, your pH is a curve over time rather than a single point. As you deplete the buffering capacity remaining in the mash, your pH rises. At some point every fly-sparged mash will cross the point where you start to extract tannins, unless you either acidify your sparge water or if you stop before the pH rises high enough.
I oversimplified for brevity… ;D Personally, I don’t really care how or why since I spent the time monitoring it with a meter for a few. From memory, in a double batch sparge, pH of first runnings stayed “under 6”, but not much like, 5.8, 2nd went well over 6, like 6.3. Trust me, this in not good. For the record, they did rise over time as well but not much. Now this is in the days before BNW and pH info was not really accessible to us. We spent a few years debating little specks of detail like mash temp or room temp. In any event, I learned AG brewing from reading Dave Miller and his standard tech was to acidify sparge to 5.7 for every beer. I did this and beers were good (I blew people’s minds in the 90’s) but the 8 hours fly session were a dog. Had a kid and took hiatus. Lurking in the forums (green board) I found renewed interest in brewing via batch sparging. I dove in but swore the beers were not as good. I started fooling with the sparge and the quality came back. That is not to say these beers were an astringent mess, they were actually pretty good, just not as good. Nowadays I acidify sparge to mash pH.
I am brewing again in a few hours and I am going to plan to acidify my sparge water in the HLT. Having not done this and not having access to TA I was going to use Bru’n sparge acidification with a low TA setting. I was going to add lactic acid and measure until I hit mash PH. Does this technique make sense? Or would you alter this?
Hi, pretty sure it was all related to the size and timing of the hop additions. I was just adding WAY too many hops in at the flameout and holding the temp for too long. I have adjusted that back down and the balance has improved by leaps.
I’m with you on the temperature. Next batch I try, I’m going to whirlpool only, nothing in the kettle. Shooting for 140F down to about 120F. Only fear here is infection.
Here’s another random thought… when you transfer to your fermenter, do you end up carrying over a lot of the vegetal matter from the kettle / whirlpool hops into the fermenter? I do mainly out of greediness and not wanting to leave any wort behind. I’m getting the same astringency and wondering if this much vegetal material in the fermenter is adding to the problem. Aiming to avoid this too and will post some results in a week or two.