Dropping the pH below 4.5 is good if you want to avoid vomit smells due to bacteria in your tun or your grain. However, if you boil before souring then dropping the pH is probably optional.
Makes sense, appreciate all the advice. In this case tho (as in no starter) sounds like a jump start on dropping the pH would help.
Last year I did 3 batches of sour without adjustment to 4.5 post boil. This year I did 4 batches using adjustment to 4.5 post boil. Last year’s beers were not gross. This year’s aren’t done yet obviously but from tasting the hydrometer samples they seem a lot cleaner. So far…
At this early stage of trial I am willing to commit to saying that adjusting to 4.5 is insurance. However, its not a substitute for ridding your process of oxygen. I still purge with CO2 every transfer and every time I open a fermentor to take a sample.
That purge is what’s scaring me. If we transfer the wort after mash, short boil, pH adjustment into a carboy (with an auto siphon to avoid splashing) to pitch the lacto there will may be some O2 in the carboy. Maybe we should use a smaller (3gallon) carboy to leave little headspace? Fermenting in a corny sounds ideal but I’m not brewing at home where I’d have access to the keg & C02.
It’s debatable. The Ca content is largely needed for two functions: precipitating oxalate from the mash and flocculating ale yeast from the finished beer. The first function is always worthwhile, but the second function isn’t really needed in a cloudy wheat style such as Berliner Weisse. Calcium is not needed for bacteria or yeast health since the malt provides all the calcium necessary for that purpose.
I’m a fan of cleaner American style sours. So I’m careful to avoid touches of acetic, enteric, and isovaleric if possible. Others consider a touch of those to be “complexity”. I’m not saying they are wrong, I served my country to preserve their right to funk it up. Its just not my thing. I try to get my complexity elsewhere. So, if I didn’t have a CO2 bottle, I would get one LOL. If it just wasn’t an option I would use what I had available to keep O2 ingress at a minimum. Boiling removes O2. Limiting exposure by planning what NEEDS to be done to the least amount of transfers as possible. Limiting headspace to minimum too. Limiting testing samples to a minimum required too. So for each step ask WHY and then try to find another way that is less exposure.
For example, you want 6 IBUs. Why? Probably for hop flavor, because you can’t detect 6 IBUs is a 3.2pH beer. I can’t anyway. So can you get some aroma from dry hopping that might translate as flavor since most of flavor is picked up from aroma? Probably.
I stand corrected.
Oxygen exposure during sour worting with lacto is not that harmful if you have another control on harmful bacteria such as boiling or pH below 4.5. Oxygen exposure causes the lacto to produce a fruity odor (ethyl acetate?). I like to do the lacto ferment in a closed bucket to reduce oxygen exposure during fermentation but I am not concerned about oxygen exposure before pitching the lacto. Some folks say that oxygen exposure inhibits lacto but I believe that to be overblown if you have the control on harmful bacteria. If you very much dislike fruitiness in your sours then limit your samples as indicated by Klickitat Jim. I don’t find limiting samples to be necessary. In any case, the 2008 BJCP guidelines (have not consulted 2015) for Berliner Weiss allows for some fruitiness. For the record, I do a starter with pilsener malt which drops the pH to 4.5 upon pitching and don’t do a boil.
There are a lot of ways to make a sour beer. The need to pre-acidify and/or minimize oxygen depend on your specific process. Here’s an overly simplified look at how oxygen affects the major players in a sour beer:
Spoilage/acetic bacteria - O2 typically increases activity
Lactobacillus - O2 does not significantly increase or decrease activity
Saccharomyces - O2 generally needed to promote yeast health
Brettanomyces - O2 increases production of acetic acid and ethyl acetate. May be desired in small amounts, but not generally in large amounts
So basically, you want to take a look at what critters are in play to determine how you want to handle oxygenation. If you’re kettle souring, you definitely want to minimize O2 levels to the best extent you can to inhibit bacteria that can create off flavors. But if you’re boiling before souring, that isn’t necessarily a concern. Also, if you’re souring post-boil, followed by (or along with) Saccharomyces only (i.e., no Brett), then oxygen isn’t really an issue.
In other words, I wouldn’t sweat the O2 in your case if you’re boiling prior to souring and just using Sacc.
That’s what I was kind of hinting at. I would mash, boil with no hops, chill to 100 and put it in the fermentor, pitch lacto, let it sit, then pitch 05, then dry hop when it’s done.
Would you do another short boil after lacto? Guessing killing the lacto would allow us to aerate before pitching S-05 without any ill effects
Nope, I would just pitch plenty of sac yeast. A full packet of properly hydrated 05 ought to be plenty for 3.5 gallons of non oxygenated wort. The lacto won’t die but it will peter out. It prefers the simplest of sugars. Its not like Brett that will eat your shoe laces if you give it a chance.
In terms of preference on stopping the lacto, I do bump it up to a full boil for a minute or so to shut down the lacto when my desired pH is reached, then chill down to ale fermentation temp and pitch the sacc - I blanket with CO2 during the kettle souring and make a big lacto starter to get the wort below 4.5 while the lacto does its job - and hit it with lactic acid, if necessary to get down there to keep the bacteria that I don’t want in there out of there. I also use plastic wrap on the surface of the wort and around the kettle lid while souring in the kettle. I draw off pH samples every few hours after 16 hours and my last one was down to 2.9 after 16 hours, sour I went straight to boil at that point on that one.
Lately, I’ve been wondering if DMS is an issue at all, at least on the homebrew scale 
I don’t think Berliner Weisse is all that difficult, your plan seems sound to me!
We proceeded ahead last night, not an ideal brewday but excited to see how it turned out:
Water ended up being a bit of an unknown - I meant to bring some of my filtered tap water but forgot so we brewed with 75% distilled, 25% straight out of the tap.
We ended up doing a 20m boil.
We racked from the kettle to a 3 gallon carboy to minimize head space so it will be interesting to see if we have any oxygen related problems.
I forgot to save some distilled water for pH meter calibration so used tap between the wort and calibration solution so that was not ideal. But it looks like we got it to around 4.5 or 4.6 with 88% lactic acid before pitching.
My buddy picked up a heating belt and some mylar to keep the temperature. We cooled to 103f, pitched the lacto, and wrapped it up. It was up to 115f this morning so he unplugged the belt and ordered a temperature controller.
All in all though I forgot how easy, quick, and refreshing 3 gallon BIAB batches are! Perfect for a work night.
I would love it if an exbeeriment proved I don’t need to boil Pilsner malt for 90m haha.
I use a lot of Pilsner malt and usually boil for 60 minutes with no off flavors. So there!
I would suggest not covering a typical Pilsner batch while it is in the chilling process - leave the lid off or mostly uncovered - I have a clean screen that I place over the kettle while chilling to allow the SMM/DMS to escape out (if it is forming at all).
I have used extended hop stands on Pilsners quite a few times with a covered kettle, and I have yet to notice any DMS.
I took a BJCP class from an experienced teacher and he advised that the only time he encountered it in his own home brew was when he got a new counter flow chiller and he did a hop stand covered and then started his runoff to fermenter. He said the vegetal flavor stood out distinctly. I believe using an immersion chiller likely avoids is, as the wort is in the DMS production zone temperature range for less time.
Of course it is a single data point, so it may not be meaningful. I just don’t want to risk my 10 gallon lager batches to a creamed corn attack :),