Just a couple questions. I thought about PMing Steve, but decided that more folks might gain knowledge if it was out in the open. So, I’ve judged with the qued method before and I understand how it works up to the point of mini bos. Since there are multiple teams judging the flight, how do they determine which beers move on to mini bos. I vaguely recall that our table moved a couple on to mini bos. But I was thinking that it was possible and maybe likely that other tablee saw much better beers. Then I thought, what if each table moved 3 beers onto mini bos, well its possible 1st 2nd and 3rd could all come from one table. But if they only moved two on, the 3rd place beer could get dropper from mini bos. It crossed my mind that maybe they use scores to pick for instance the top 6. But how do you know that every table scores similarly?
So, here ya go someone. How does BJCP Qued Judging work when it comes to mini bos?
Usually most teams will just look at the number of beers they had per flight and try and determine what are their strongest beers. Most of the time it’s easy to come up with your top 3. Then the legs come together and see if they have a reasonable total and go from there.
I’ve never seen anything more formal setup for it. Just seems to work out.
When in the position to tell people what to do (e.g. Judge Coordinator or ranking/head judge), I advise on sending any beer that that judge pair believes could be worthy of a medal. If it is crappy, it gets kicked immediately. If it’s better than the other beers the other judges sent, it gets a medal.
Most of the time, it is 2 beers sent under that “system”. Sometimes 3. Sometimes 1. As long as the best beers make it to mini-BOS, I’m a happy camper.
Notice how I said nothing of scores. BUT - if there are 38-39pt beers not going to mini-BOS, then we should talk with those judges.
I’ve sent three to the mini-BOS and I’ve sent none. Just this past weekend we sent one to the mini-BOS in one flight and two in a different mini-BOS flight.
The worst thing I ever saw was a judge send FOUR beers to the mini-BOS. What a colossal waste of time. Never more than three, EVER. In their defense…oh nevermind, it was just plain stupid!
What’s the hangup with the # of beers? I mean, they could have had all of the great beers. Plus, if it’s crappy, just dump it as soon as you all smell it. Mini-BOS takes but like 5-10 minutes, less of it’s a small flight.
So in this competition the awards are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, without a mini-BOS they would have had to decide which beer was fourth and out. Since there can be only three, only three should EVER advance to mini-BOS in this situation. If we are giving fourth place, fifth place…eighth place, then advance that many beers, but because it is a situation involving the top three only three should advance otherwise it is a waste of time, cups, etc.
IMHO this judge was great at evaluating beers, slow, but great. They were lousy as a lead judge and I hope I never end up on a panel with them again unless they have learned to make a decision.
Of course if I ever get my written up enough to average 90 instead of a lousy 89 I’ll most likely be the highest ranking judge on the panel so it won’t matter.
As a general rule, I’m all for limiting the number of beers a panel puts through to the next round to 3 because judges may have to taste another session, drive home, etc. But there are exceptions particularly if there is a large difference in opinion about the quality of the fourth beer, the other panel(s) put through very few beers, etc.
Edit: I’ve seen my panel’s top 3 be reshuffled in the mini-BOS so a panel’s number 4 could be judged higher, but the case has to be made for letting in the fourth.
for the record, I don’t agree with Mike, and the others who have had a fit when someone sent four.
Me? No, I’m not sending 4. But I’m a Grandmaster Judge. I’m supposed to be the expert at the table.
I just have a hard time understanding the problem.
I have had high ranking judges tell me I MUST push three, because maybe my third best beer is the third best overall. Dude…Again, GM here. If we cannot trust me when I say that our second best beer was a 21 and not medal worthy, then why are we bothering with a competition?!?
On the same note, I’ve had PLENTY of times where one team was very inexperienced. I cannot judge all the beers, so if they have a hard time deciding between beers then I’ll tell them to go ahead and push all 4. I and the other lead judges can get through them quickly.
Just judged with some newbies to cider, who pushed a loaded-with-vanilla C1A entry to mini-bos. C’mon. People should have more of a problem with THAT than if they had pushed 4. An extra entry adds a minute to my mini-BOS. Someone not sending the “your schwarzbier needs to be richer, more body, and more roast” to mini-BOS may rob someone of a medal.
Give the best beers a chance, and get the round over with as quickly and as smoothly as possible. Not rocket surgery.
There are only 3 places, so it makes no sense to push 4 to MBOS. However, I have pushed 3 to MBOS and all 3 of them medaled. Its rare, but maybe you are the lucky one that judged the best beers in the entire flight. What is more pathetic is when you have no beers that you want to push, but push one anyhow. Its sad, but maybe your best poor beer is still better than the other team’s beers.
I’m of the mind to agree with Michael and disagree with Dixon. I’ve seen too many ‘higher up’ judges get really persnickety when it comes to the # of beers sent per judge pair. I don’t think I’ll ever see the point in being rigid about it.
If the “worst thing” was that an inexperienced judge pair sent 4 beers, then it’ll be the best comp I’ve ever been to. It’s really no big deal to me as long as the beers that potentially deserve a medal have a shot at it.
Like Michael said (although I’m only a lowly master), would I personally send 4? No. But does that mean that it’s a “colossal waste of time”? Nope. Would I rather give 30-60 seconds to a 4th beer that may end up being better than the 2nd or 3rd beer an inexperienced group sent? Sure!
Exactly. Especially when we have so many newer judges that don’t know what they’re doing… yet.
FWIW, in our area we have a TON of new judges. Our last large comp had 75 judges. 28 of those became BJCP judges in the past year. I do not expect them to know what they are doing yet. But I will surely not let an entry that deserves a shot at a medal not get a shot because of some rigid #'s rule.
Trick question? It’s generally going to be up to the organizer in most cases. They’re going to know how many entries they have in each medal category total and how many assigned to each flight. They should be letting the judges know when they sit for their flight(s) how many each pair should/can push. Most organizers that I like will give the judges a little discretion (e.g. push 1-3 depending on overall flight quality). But ultimately their job as an organizer is to keep the mini-BOS manageable for the judges who will be having to sort it out. In a category of 24 entries, I’m going to try to split into 3 flights and get the judges to push 1 or 2 to keep mini-BOS in the 6 or less range. But ultimately my goal is to have them push the beers that are worthy of winning a medal, so the particulars of the competition make a difference.
Good stuff guys. No more than 3 makes perfect sense on that level. I also agree with no pushing beers that aren’t medal worthy. In home brew comps, especially smaller ones, that’s less of a worry since the public won’t be shopping for that beer just because it got a medal. In pro comps you do have to consider the integrity of the competition and what it stands for. I could see some remote circumstances where 4 might get pushed and I wouldn’t freak out because of it. You could have a couple beers tied for 3rd and just push them to get a second opinion.
The question is how many tables… if it’s a flight of 180 with ten tables, are you wanting to do a 30-40 beer mini bos? Probably not
I believe the biggest flight I have seen was 54 entries and at the time we split it over five judge teams. It still was 15 beers to have to sort through by five judges.
The right team of two/three lead judges could still get through a 30 beer mini-BOS. They’ll go through it faster than one of those silly situations where every judge participates and we’ve got 6 people of widely varying knowledge levels arguing.
Biggest I’ve seen was 7 teams for 64 entries. 19 in mini-BOS. 3 judges got through it quickly, and immediately kicked the 49/50 scoring beer when the not-blind-to-diacetyl palates tasted it.
Other times, with 4 teams doing 31 beers and the wrong (slow) people assigned to mini-BOS the rest of the comp was still waiting for them 90 minutes after everyone else was done…
The one thing that I think hasn’t been explicitly stated above is that each judge team gets its own flight summary sheet. It only lists the scores given to the beers that that team judged. The top beers from that sheet are the ones that are selected by that team to advance to Mini-BOS. The queued part only comes in when assigning the beers to that sheet. Otherwise, its identical to non-queued judging.
If I am lucky enough to get 4 real 40+ point beers in my flight, there is one scenario where I’d seriously consider sending all 4 to mini-bos, but only as a last resort.
Lets say the first and last beers in the flight are the 2 vying for 3rd in my flight and they are tied or within a point. I may or may not want to send the 4 up, simply so that I can taste them FRESH side by side on the mini-bos panel. This is a pretty rare situation, but I would consider it if too much time has passed between the two 3rd place contenders, or, if I scored Beer A higher then B and my partner scored B higher than A but the two average scores were equal. This would only be for really high scoring beers, like 40+ 3rd place, never for a pair of 33s. The factor here is that they aren’t within a window where a side by side of the original bottle would be a good comparison.
In a nutshell, the scenario is: two entries tied for 3rd with very high scores and a long gap between those beers in the flight so that one is now warm and flat, and the other is still cold and carbonated. I’d rather send them both up and let them fight it out while both are fresh, my rank be damned.
And this is why I had personally selected who was the “lead judge” in every judge group and who was the “head judge” for each category for KCBM 33. Some judges are so slow that they grind a comp to a near halt. Luckily I know who they are and can plan around them.
Judge more than a couple times, and you’ll eventually decide that first beer that eventually “won” the flight shoulda maybe been a little higher. It is in our nature to try to leave room for that almost perfect beer to wow you. Re-tasting entries with similar scores separated by significant time is often a good idea.
I’d say its ALWAYS a good idea, but the point I was trying to make is that even doing that may not be a fair comparison if one is sitting warm (and flat) and the other was just poured.
My point here is use common sense and you should always check with the Judge Director.
BUT - if there are 38-39pt beers not going to mini-BOS, then we should talk with those judges.