Why isn’t Boil Time an relational entry in any of the software apps for beer brewing and recipes. I’m not an app designer but play one on TV. I’ve posted this elsewhere on the forum and gotten everything from “it depends on your specific hardware profiles” to “you’re stupid” or “you’re dumb”.
WHY should I have to fudge efficiency when I KNOW what my efficiency is, I’d just like to figure out the change in Boil Times as a result in ANY of these apps? Seems like a very simple change/addition.
I normally boil between 60 and 120 minutes depending on the beer I am making. If it’s an IPA, 60; if it is a Stout, 90; if it is a Wee Heavy 120. I boil to reach my desired target OG and if my volume if off a bit at the end of the boil, so be it. I know that I am going to have really good efficiency with a lighter beer (80-85%) and poorer efficiency with a heavier beer (70-75%).
That said, by setting your hardware profiles in the brewing software, you can get close on your volume when reach your desired OG. You may have to play with the settings a bit to get where the numbers you want to see, I had to. I use Beer Smith and have pretty much nailed my hardware profile down for efficiency and come pretty close to volumes as well. Remember your boil kettle profile will effect how much you boil off, a larger opening on you kettle will have more surface area on the top of the wort so you will tend to boil off a bit more then you would on say a keggle. Also the more vigorously you boil, the more liquid you will lose.
Hope this tries to answer your question.
Thx but… wouldn’t you rest easier knowing in advance what your typical efficiency is (you clearly do) and presenting the app with “What if” in terms of Boil Time without “faking it”? It’s a silly oversight but that just an old grumpy bass player talking!
Todd
I am not saying you are wrong, but there are variables that you may or may not be able to control when you brew. One is mash efficiency. This can vary with different malsters and from year to year variations in the area where the grain is grown, seasonal differences in your brewing water, and any errors made during the mashing process. The malsters do a pretty good job to provide a lot of information for the specific lot of of the grains you use, but a change in mash efficiency can effect the overall brewhouse efficiency. I take lots of measurements to confirm that I am on the right track and verify my mash pH is where I want it to be and adjust if I need to to hit my desired OG.
Right on. But forgiving specific grain bills, your BHE i should remain stable and is indeed part of the process/software. Why should it be different for Boil Times?
Yeah.
Todd
I use Brewfather. My boil off rate is set for various seasons along with my altitude. No amount of software can compensate for small variances in mash efficiency but you can measure your boil pot gravity as you approach the end of your sparge. This allows you to start your boil timer to match your desired hop utilization and allows for vapour loss during the mash. There is a gravity/boil off calculator in the software to help you adjust your boil. If the gravity in the kettle is too high, add water. If the gravity is too low boil until you get the gravity you want to start with. The start of the “boil” is not necessarily when you start your boil timer if your OG and/or volume needs adjusting. Rather than use an hydrometer, where you need to wait till the sample reaches 25 degrees, use a refractometer - the sample from the kettle will cool very rapidly as the drop hits the face of the device and you get instant feedback and can enter the number in the software and get a result in seconds. There is no way to “create a relational entry” without the software knowing what the preboil gravity and volume is.
I don’t know why this is such a difficult concept.
I create a recipe. I KNOW my boil off rate (hasn’t changed in 12+ batches).
I know my BHE is 70% +/-1% ditto las 12 or so batches. WHY, since all of this chazerei is hypothetical ANYWAY and all relational according to those hypotheses, a simple “expletive deleted” “expletive deleted” BUTTON
Include a disclaimer: “The use of the Boil Off Time BUTTON is used at your own risk and discretion. Results are erroneous and meaningless anyway and are only important to, like, one moron, old fart bass player in God’s Waiting Room, aka SWFL so won’t be long now anyway.”
That’s all.
Then get used to banging your head against the wall old bass player.
Which software are you using, and what do you expect to change when you modify the boil time? Are you expecting that different boil times will result in changes to the OG, IBUs, Color, something else?
I’m appreciative of your response but I think I’ve heard about everything that makes sense to everyone but me. So, thus and therefore, I think that am the problem. But I still am bugged by this so here we go…
“Are you expecting that different boil times will result in changes to the OG, IBUs, Color, something else?”
I’ll take ANYTHING for $100 Alex!
In recipe design of ANY software (B Father, B Friend, and B Smith).
Change a fermentable?
ABV changes.
Color changes.
IBU changes.
Change the Boil Time in Design
OR
In Equipment Profile?
ZIP, Nada, Zed, Zero, Nothing, Goose Egg… And… Crickets.
Here’s a recipe for a simple Strong Bitter that I just started FROM Scratch, using a Default Equip Profile
60 Minute Boil
Thanks for your interest,
Todd
hey man, just FYI - in the app I use - brewtarget - it took a good bit of tweaking to get the boiloff stuff to make sense, and tbh I kind of did the math backwards by many years ago recording how much wort I started with, and how much I ended with after a 60 min boil, and made the parameters of boiloff fit that. and now I just dont mess with it, and it gets me in the ballpark of where i want.
I do a highly repeatable process, single infusion mash, same boil times generally, and even with that i dont always hit my numbers.
Todd,
Gonna jump in here and say that yes, a change in boil time should change things in the recipe calculations.
First of all, increasing boil time requires increasing the amount of water you use. Longer boil means more water, and if you have more water you can rinse your grains more effectively. You mentioned in a earlier post that you know your brew house efficiency. I argue that you brew house efficiency will change with a longer boil time (assuming you use the extra water to rinse the grains and don’t just dump it in the boil kettle after mash and runoff).
A general point: your BHE changes with the OG of the beer and the boil time you select. That is one reason to use extended boil times with higher gravity beers: it gives you more water to better rinse the grains, improving BHE.
I am not familiar with the software you are using, but it looks like it asks for your brew house efficiency, and that stays constant regardless of boil time. I see that as a flaw.
This is why I wrote my own brewing software in Excel, as I could never find a brewing program that really captured the nuances of recipe development, at least in my brewhouse.
I think what OP is looking for is software that will let the batch volume vary as boil time changes. He wants the pre-boil volume to be one of the independent variables. So doing it this way, your mash efficiency wouldn’t change. Your IBUs would change a bit b/c they are a function of SG which will vary with the boil time. And, of course, batch volume, OG, and SRM would vary dramatically.
But that is the reverse of what the apps do. They take batch volume and boil time as independent variables and calculate the necessary pre-boil volume as a dependent variable.
The apps are trying to be helpful by varying what he wants to be fixed. Hence the frustration.
I think I mean to clarify that, at the end of the day - no one is drinking your brewing software, or even aware that it exists. The main reason I don’t switch using my super antiquated brewtarget stuff is because I have it dialed in to where - I enter the grain in lbs/SRM/extract, hops in AA, and adjust the yeast attenuation I expect to get (i guess i take it for granted, but i simply “know” what most of the yeasts I use will attenuate to based on grist, so just enter what I think sounds right) - and I get a series of outputs that I feel accurately predict the finished product.
So, perhaps try another brewing software - honestly, I recommend brewtarget, its simple, free and functional enough - and just dial it in, and keep any extra data you require in excel or txt files.
Overall I have a bru’n wter spreadsheet template I haven’t opened in quite a while. about 125 txt files for each batch, an excel file where i note basic stuff i notice for each yeast - atten per brew, if it was a vigorous or quiet fermentation, whether i recommend it again to myself or not, and brewtarget.
I have backup copies made of these probably about once a year just in case I have a HD fail or something as well. it’s a mess of stuff but it all fits into my “alcohol production” folder.
This is exactly what I am seeing as well. I have BeerSmith 2 and tested a recipe with a 60 minute boil, then changed that to 90 minutes. The batch size remains the same, and the pre-boil volume is increased to make up the boil-off difference.
You can see it in the screenshots @user204 posted, too. In his 4000-minute boil, the pre-boil volume is 53 gallons for a 5-gallon batch.
This comment does not address the OP’s concern. I simply thought I’d chime in with my process. Please disregard if uninterested. Like @goose said, volume is far less important to me than OG, pH, and temp into the fermenter.
I use BeerSmith for recipe formulation and not much else.
If I want to change boil times it’s simple because I know my boil off rate on my induction cooktop at 2.8kW is 1.5 gal/hr. Knowing one hour boil off is key to this.
If I have 4.75 gal at 1.050 pre boil that’s 237.5 points in the kettle. If I boil 30 min I know I will end up at 4 gal on the nose so I’ll get a 1.059 OG:
4.75 * 50 =237.5
237.5 / 4 =59.375 = 1.059
I boiled off .75 gal in .5 hour because I boil off 1.5 gal in an hour:
.75 / 1.5 =0.5 or 50% of hourly boil off
Given that same 4.75 gal 1.050 wort pre boil, if my goal is 1.065 OG in the fermenter I know I need to boil longer to get 3.65 gal at the end of boil. I need to boil off 1.1 gal, so 44 min:
4.75 * 50 =237.5
237.5 / 65 =3.654 gal required post boil
4.75 - 3.65 =1.1 gal boil off required
1.1 / 1.5 =0.733 or 73% of my hourly boil off
.73 * 60 =43.8 min
I know I need to boil ~44 minutes at 2.8kW to get 3.65 gal of 1.065 wort. I can live with ~35 oz less than my 4 gal preference in the fermenter far easier than I could if I was 6 points low. My tolerance is +/-2 points.
