Carbonate Hardness = Carbonate Alkalinity based on Source pH?

[mabrungard]

@hackrsackr

Ok, but then why does your sheet give me such a high mash pH (6.2) from the chalk additions, if it doesn’t raise the pH that much (which I agree with)? Is the 322 number there just to keep the mEq/l balance even, but not affecting the predicted mash pH to the extent that 322 ppm HCO3 would (and I guess the Ca contribution would also be different).

If you read the comment that is attached to the chalk addition on the Water Adjustment sheet, you’ll see that it says:

Chalk has limited solubility (about 50 mg/L) in water and wort
making it less suitable for adding alkalinity. 
DO NOT USE CHALK FOR BREWING UNLESS IT HAS BEEN
FULLY PRE-DISSOLVED INTO WATER WITH CO2.

If you’re not doing that, then the calculations are worthless.

I’ll restate the most important part of my previous message: DON’T USE CHALK IN BREWING

[mchrispen]

Somehow this reminds me of the kwasser? (chalk water) discussion with Aj a few years ago.

[hackrsackr]

@mabrungard

@hackrsackr

Ok, but then why does your sheet give me such a high mash pH (6.2) from the chalk additions, if it doesn’t raise the pH that much (which I agree with)? Is the 322 number there just to keep the mEq/l balance even, but not affecting the predicted mash pH to the extent that 322 ppm HCO3 would (and I guess the Ca contribution would also be different).

If you read the comment that is attached to the chalk addition on the Water Adjustment sheet, you’ll see that it says:

Chalk has limited solubility (about 50 mg/L) in water and wort
making it less suitable for adding alkalinity. 
DO NOT USE CHALK FOR BREWING UNLESS IT HAS BEEN
FULLY PRE-DISSOLVED INTO WATER WITH CO2.

If you’re not doing that, then the calculations are worthless.

I’ll restate the most important part of my previous message: DON’T USE CHALK IN BREWING

I get the importance of pH vs carbonate species. I’m just curious as to why your calculations are so high from chalk additions. Even fully dissolved with CO2 CaCO3, the alkalinity contribution is still significantly higher than Kai’s chalk experiments. If the calculations are worthless, then why do you include them? Oh, and…

I’LL USE CHALK IF I WANT TO,
Thanks!

[mabrungard]

@hackrsackr

I get the importance of pH vs carbonate species. I’m just curious as to why your calculations are so high from chalk additions. Even fully dissolved with CO2 CaCO3, the alkalinity contribution is still significantly higher than Kai’s chalk experiments. If the calculations are worthless, then why do you include them? Oh, and…

I’LL USE CHALK IF I WANT TO,
Thanks!

I apologize. I haven’t made it clear that you are talking about two different anions. However, they do happen to have an equivalence. The 158 ppm of CO3 can be expressed equivalently as 322 ppm of HCO3. Both of those expressions result in the same amount of alkalinity.

PS: Kai’s chalk experiments were flawed and even AJ Delange mentioned that to Kai. Kai was a real trooper and he often did interesting work. Unfortunately, he did get over his head occasionally.

[hackrsackr]

@mabrungard

@hackrsackr

I get the importance of pH vs carbonate species. I’m just curious as to why your calculations are so high from chalk additions. Even fully dissolved with CO2 CaCO3, the alkalinity contribution is still significantly higher than Kai’s chalk experiments. If the calculations are worthless, then why do you include them? Oh, and…

I’LL USE CHALK IF I WANT TO,
Thanks!

I apologize. I haven’t made it clear that you are talking about two different anions. However, they do happen to have an equivalence. The 158 ppm of CO3 can be expressed equivalently as 322 ppm of HCO3. Both of those expressions result in the same amount of alkalinity.

PS: Kai’s chalk experiments were flawed and even AJ Delange mentioned that to Kai. Kai was a real trooper and he often did interesting work. Unfortunately, he did get over his head occasionally.

Yup I get that they’re two two separate species of carbonate. It’s the HCO3 equivalent of 158 ppm CO3 equating to 322 ppm. I’ve never seen that before. It appears you used the the ppm of HCO3 that equated to the 5.3 mEq/l value of the of the CO3.  Which makes sense (the use of that route for the hydroxide is also interesting).

The part that doesn’t make sense to me is that in Palmers water book he states that CaCO3 dissolved by CO2 is roughly equivalent to the HCO3 component of NaHCO3. Which is like 180 something ppm HCO3, which appears to be how Kai did the CO3 to HCO3 conversion… but that doesn’t make sense in terms of mEq/l ionic balance. So it was trying to correlate these two methods that wasn’t working (which makes sense if kais experiments are flawed).

The ionic balance way honestly makes more sense to me. It’s just the pH dependence and variance of the mEq/l values that makes it difficult to implement IMO.

Thanks, for understanding that I was joking with the caps lock. Wasn’t sure.