Got some score sheets back and one of the comments on one of the beers was “astringent.” Tasting the beer again, I can see what the judge was tasting.
I popped open a stout, and there’s that same dryness of finish. Almost chalky.
I’m doing in a partial mash in a grain bag, rinsed with about at most a gallon for sparging. I usually do a half gallon but there’s some batches I’ve rinsed more. I don’t squeeze everything out of the bag.
Just curious as to what could be causing this. I know over sparging will extract tannins, but I don’t think I’m doing that. Any other things I should be watching?
For extract, I use Briess Pilsen. I know Martin has said they have high sodium (IIRC) in their water when their making the extract. Could that be an issue at play here?
I’ll look up the recipes but process is mini mash of 5 or 6 lbs (specialty grains plus 2 or 3 lbs of base malt) for 60 minutes at +- 155. Mash is 3 gallons. Rinsed with half gallon of heated water. Never checked the temp. Would a cool sparge cause it?
DME is added late in the boil. Boil volume is about three gallons or so.
No, a cool sparge shouldn’t be an issue. I think it sounds like a pH issue. Those dark roasted malts are inherently acidic and could drop your pH low enough to leave an astringent, acrid perception in the beer. I remember the first AG stout I brewed, well before I got a handle on pH - it had a very similar character. Since I use RO water now that has basically no sodium, I use baking soda to adjust dark beers up to a good pH - I like ~ 5.5 pH for dark beers. It works extremely well.
Stout
3 lbs Maris Otter
8 oz Chocolate
4 oz Roasted Barley
4 oz Black Patent
3 lbs DME (Breiss Pilsen)
.75 oz Nugget 60 min
.75 Fuggles 30 min
.5 Fuggles 10 min
Dubbel
2.5 lbs Pale Ale Malt
2.5 Munich
8 oz Biscuit
3.5 lbs DME (Breiss Pils)
1 lb Wheat DME
1 lb D-45
1 oz Nugget 60 min
.75 CEntennial 15 min
The stout probably was mashed below 155. The dubbel above. I’ve been trying to get more body so I’ve been mashing higher. Both are lacking body. Comments on the score sheet for the dubbel reflected lack of body and suggested using Munich (which is in there). The nugget hops are getting old, but I don’t think hops would give an astringency. Could they?
The dubbel also had dates carmelized and added to the secondary. At first there was a vegetal flavor, but that is gone.
No roasted malt in the dubble. I’m thinking water pH. Unless it’s really extreme over spargeing shouldn’t cause astringency unless your pH is out of line.
5 gallon batches. Chicago tap water run through a charcoal filter. No water adjustments, never checked pH.
Other batches using the same process and water are fine. Both dark and light beers.
I would say the stout recipe is not a keeper. Too much roast in the flavor, but the finish is drrryyyyyy.
I made a double batch of the dubbel, so I’ll need to tap the other keg and see how it is. Maybe it’s the dates?
On two score sheets for the dubbel, only one called out astringency. The other judge said it was delicious but not enough body for the style. Maybe I’m finding astringency where it’s not because of that comment, but I don’t think so. I don’t think star san residue in the bottle would cause it. I suppose I should check the tap against the bottles and see if they’re the same.
8oz roast for 5 gallons is reasonable. I’ve often used full pound. Maybe your water has changed with the seasons. Might think about getting it analyzed and maybe start using RO.
I’ve made quite a few stouts with ~ those amounts of roast malts that came out good, but I think it would benefit from some crystal 80 (and maybe Munich) to balance the roast. I could see that one having a pretty dry finish, even with spot on pH.
Yes, Briess extracts do have high sodium due to their local water company using ion-exchange to soften the municipal supply. If you were adding only a minor addition (30 to 50 points of gravity) then it shouldn’t really be a problem. It could be a problem if you were making a big beer with mostly extract.
While alkalinity can produce problems with pH and subsequent tannin and silicate extraction, its not the only way to get them. As you might expect, I am fairly particular about water chemistry. But I was producing a mild tannin expression in my first few beers when I switched over to my new brewing equipment. It turned out that I was oversparging and introducing tannins in that way. I had been stopping the runoff at 2 Brix, but that was apparently too low. I now stop at around 3 Brix. That solved the problem.
Joe, I note that you are in north Chicago. For some of Chicagoland, the water is from the Great Lakes and other places are groundwater. I’m curious about your source. The lake water quality is relatively constant. The lake alkalinity is modest, but should still have some neutralization for some styles.
The Great Lakes Compact has changed what can be done with lake water. If your wastewater does not make it back into the lake, then I understand that they are requiring those utilities to stop using lake water and find another source so that this use isn’t draining the lake. If your utility had to get a new source, that could be a source of your problem. Other sources in the region are typically much more alkaline. Hopefully you have been neutralizing your brewing water with acid, as needed. That should remove that source of tannin and silicate from your beer. But it won’t solve oversparging.
I’m in the city itself along the north lakefront. Our water comes from Lake Michigan.
I’ve never done any water treatment except to run it through an under counter charcoal filter.
The lake water seems very constant, though there are times when you can smell the chlorine strongly. I believe this is seasonal perhaps when they change to chloramines. But I’ve never tracked it. Or it could be when there’s a spike in E. coli bacteria along the lakefront. I don’t know if they up the dose of chlorine at that point.
Take this FWIW, IME in entering several competitions a year for more than several years, noted astringency on a score sheet is one of the first things I dismiss. I find it to be one of the most subjective comments noted on any beer I have ever entered and know several other brewers with more experience and much better beers than mine that do the same.
Personally I feel that the flavor/sensation descriptors are so vague that many things can be described as astringent, some in fact actually desirable to the the style. My pale ale was just noted as being astringent and after having several people taste it I am pretty confident that it’s just not an issue. One judge noted it as being slight, the other judge (Nationally ranked) noted no such issue.
IMVHO, unless the beer is really mouth puckering, astringency may not even be an issue.
The 43 was an imperial stout, not the same beer. I whipped up the smaller stout so I wouldn’t be always drinking hi-test. I did to submit the small stout but was thinking I might. My dubble got the astringent comment and my old ale got a “not to style” so I was checking g inventory on what else I might submit and pulled a bottle of the stout.
The smaller stout was really dry, which I didn’t remember from when it was on tap.