Both ciders I have made ended up with Brett. It never really came through in the first batch but is very present in my current batch. I am not a Brett guy but the current batch is it bad. Why is this happening? Is it because I am not pasteurizing the juice or maybe it has preservatives? I haven’t really researched making ciders. Just threw some stuff in a bucket with yeast and let it do its thing…
Where did you get the juice?
Grocery store. From what I remember it was 100% juice with no preservatives. I think I used different juices for each batch. I suppose both batches could have simply got infected but I have not had that problem with beer.
If not pasteurizing, then of course it’s extremely likely you’ve got Brett in there. I’d say it’s turning out just the way that it should. If you don’t like Brett, you need to kill it and pitch your own yeast, plain & simple.
Was the juice from the juice aisle or the fridge? If from the juice aisle, you don’t need to pasteurize as they are shelf stable for many many months. Campden tablets would be a good idea for cider from the fridge.
Good to know. Current batch was from the juice aisle in 2 gallon jugs.
Thought I saw somewhere that ciders are prone to infection if you don’t follow some particular procedure so thought maybe it had something to do with that. Must be imagining things.
what kind of Brett character?
Any residual sugar in these ciders?
How’s the acid level? Cider generally does not have a high alcohol level, and if the acidity is also low, as is fairly common with mass-produced juice, they can certainly be prone to infections of various sorts.
I believe the OG was 1.054 and FG was 1.000. I was purposely going for something with higher abv. I backsweetened with a 12 oz can of concentrate. No idea about the acid level…
I am not very familiar with Brett so I would say that its character prominent but not offensive. Has the barnyard/funky thing going on that I always hear about.
Brett in cider is funky and dry. I’ve made a Brett cider (on purpose) in the past. It’s an acquired taste for sure, which I didn’t enjoy at the time but have more recently acquired after sampling a number of Basque ciders (sidras). The taste reminds me very much of green olives, and tart. The Brett character is very typical of so-called Basque ciders (from the Basque region of northern Spain), which are aged in old wood casks. Basque people’s appetite seems to be insatiable for it. I’ve never yet been there for the “txotx” (pronounced “choach”) but it sure looks like a heck of a great time – look it up everywhere. If you can get over the funk and try hard to enjoy it, you might find you don’t think it’s too bad, and maybe even kind of good.
Squirt? 
Ok well it sounds like I am not missing anything regarding ciders being more prone to infections based on process. I will have to chalk this up to bad sanitation practices coincidentally for the two ciders I have attempted but no problems for beer.
Yes, cider is very infection prone actually. I’ve had three batches turn into vinegar, had a couple of dumpers. It’s more prone to infection than beer is for sure. But, when it’s good, it’s REAL good, like, even if you don’t know what you’re doing it’s REAL good anyway… when it’s good. 
Cider can certainly be prone to infection. Some microbes target sugar, others malic acid, etc.
You can sulfite your fermentation but the amount necessary is highly dependent on pH.
If this is happening in primary then you’ve got a sanitation problem if that is the juice you’re using. With store bought mass produced juice you will be unlikely to have the things necessary in the juice that produce spicy/smoky phenolics when interacting with lactobacillus strains, so I do agree it sounds more like brett than unintended malolactic fermentation.
If this is happening after fermentation is complete then acidifying and sulfiting may help you.
if I’m making a fairly “boring” one-note cider with plain juice then I would increase acidity and alcohol level. Make it more of a borderline applewine. Higher alcohol will help protect it. Usually this involves adding white sugar but if I’ve got a low sugar juice then my preference is actually to slightly freeze concentrate it. I target 1.058 and above for everything I make. 1.065 is preferable.
Thanks for all the info.
Doing something above 7.2% ABV which is where this ended up is not really something I want. At the time of pitching yeast; fruit puree and agave nectar was added. It was fermented with K97 I believe and dry hopped a week before kegging. I noticed the pellicle about a month in the primary when transferring off the yeast and the pellicle reformed in the secondary. I have acquired a taste for the finished product however it ended up different than I hoped.
I will look into acidifying and sulfiting as I have no idea what that entails…
Sulfite is just Campden, added at 1 Camden tablet per gallon a couple days before you pitch your yeast. The Campden/sulfite kills off the nasty wild yeasts and bacteria, and while it does hurt beer yeast and wine yeast a bit (caused them to generate more sulfur), the effects fade enough after a couple days that with a healthy pitch they’re able to survive it and be the only critter in your cider.
Now, if you’re dry hopping or adding other things later in the fermentation, you might want to sanitize with alcohol or more sulfite to prevent any critters from grabbing hold from that point on too.
Thanks. I assumed that after it hit 7.2% abv that dry hopping would have little chance of adding infection. I suppose it already had the pellicle by that point anyway…
I will give another one a shot in a couple of weeks and see what I get.
I’ll just reiterate: Sulfite may be the most commonly used option. However, personally, I’m an advocate for pasteurization instead of sulfite, as I don’t like chemicals in my cider. I’ve done it both ways but I prefer pasteurization. I heat my juice to just 160 F for 10-15 minutes, cool and pitch. No sulfites, less harm to the yeast that’s pitched, less farty sulfur generated, minimal loss of aromatic compounds – my cider is much more aromatic than many others I’ve tasted. Just another option. Neither way is “wrong” in my opinion, but either method will prevent contamination.
He’s using shelf stable bottled cider. The infection isn’t coming from juice. The infection is coming from sanitation.
let me be a little more specific than when I said sulfite needs are highly dependent on pH:
You need almost 10x as much at pH 4.0 as you do at pH of 3.0. And at the high end you are quickly becoming undrinkable burning matchstick juice.
I don’t have a cider chart handy but google something like “sulfite wine chart” to get numbers. And know your pH.
If the sanitation problem is happening early on then I suppose an initial sulfite dose could help. But better to just fix the problem, sulfite after fermentation and keep things clean.
Sorry. My lack of knowledge on the topic seems to have complicated matters. Sounds like since the juice was warm on the shelf, it was already pasteurized and shouldn’t be the issue.
I found a pretty basic article which has clarified things a bit for me.
What are the effects of a juice with preservatives? EDIT- nevermind. sounds like they kill yeast…