Decoction - The Toast Test

[denny]

@denny

But so what?  And you don’t need to be an expert taster.  If decoction is supposed to make a preferable beer, anybody should be able to tell that.

“so what” and “who cares”… hrmmmm…  childish colloquialism’s that attempt to justify ones own beliefs and actions?  “Why’d you hit Johnny?”… “So what! He hit me first!”

The purpose of a scientific experiment would be to establish some numbers which quantify and qualify the maillard reactions (or other stuff) that occur (or don’t).  The question being answered isn’t “Does a decoction mash make a preferable beer”, but rather it’s “How does a decoction mash add to the maltiness of a beer”.  Whether or not people prefer the beer is an entirely different scenario.

Expert tasters, triangle tests and people in general aren’t going to tell you how a decoction mash adds (or doesn’t add) to the maltiness of a beer.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing.  If you feel that your triangle test gives you the information you seek - then go for it.  It doesn’t do that for me.

It would appear that you’re trying to answer a different question than most of us are concerned with.  And yes, tasters will tell you about the maltiness of a beer.  Analysis will tell you what’s in it.

[JT]

@denny

But so what?  And you don’t need to be an expert taster.  If decoction is supposed to make a preferable beer, anybody should be able to tell that.

“so what” and “who cares”… hrmmmm…  childish colloquialism’s that attempt to justify ones own beliefs and actions?  “Why’d you hit Johnny?”… “So what! He hit me first!”

The purpose of a scientific experiment would be to establish some numbers which quantify and qualify the maillard reactions (or other stuff) that occur (or don’t).  The question being answered isn’t “Does a decoction mash make a preferable beer”, but rather it’s “How does a decoction mash add to the maltiness of a beer”.  Whether or not people prefer the beer is an entirely different scenario.

Expert tasters, triangle tests and people in general aren’t going to tell you how a decoction mash adds (or doesn’t add) to the maltiness of a beer.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing.  If you feel that your triangle test gives you the information you seek - then go for it.  It doesn’t do that for me.

I don’t mean to kick over your sandcastles but you’re being awful defensive about a test that you admit you aren’t going to conduct, don’t have a lab to conduct and don’t have specifics as to what actual test is to be conducted.

[dkfick]

Quite frankly I do not believe there are any tests to detect ‘maltiness’.  You can tell some of the compounds that make up the beer… but those are not telling you anything about the ‘maltiness’

The test would only be able to do 1 thing as far as I can tell… If it’s calibrated to detect whatever makes up the end product of maillard reactions.  Then it could tell you if sample A) is different than sample B).  It won’t even be able to tell you all the compounds in both samples.

Maybe in the future such a test could be devised… but I’m pretty sure it’s beyond science at this point…

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@JT

I don’t mean to kick over your sandcastles but you’re being awful defensive about a test that you admit you aren’t going to conduct, don’t have a lab to conduct and don’t have specifics as to what actual test is to be conducted.

@denny

It would appear that you’re trying to answer a different question than most of us are concerned with.  And yes, tasters will tell you about the maltiness of a beer.  Analysis will tell you what’s in it.

@hopfenundmalz

In one of Bamforth’s book (I think that is it), he states that humans can detect aromas at levels that are <0.1 of what can be measured by a Gas Chromatograph. The point was that tasting panels are still required for QA/QC.

^^^ All of these.  What is the end game here, assuming a lab person performed the right tests on the right compounds ?  To make people who don’t perceive a difference to convince themselves that they do, because numbers say they should ?  Numbers don’t drink beer, and humans don’t drink numbers. Many knowledgeable people (and palates) can’t tell the difference. Mash the way you like, I guess.

[system]

Not speaking about an analysis, though an analysis at periodic intervals during a decoction would certainly contribute to the findings.

I’m talking about active fluorescence tests conducted during a decoction which would tell you about the color change (browning), maillard reactions (if any) and caramelization (if any) occurring during the decoction.

Obviously there’s no tests to detect “maltiness”… you could also reword the question to “What does a decoction contribute to a beer?”

Why would a bunch of brewers be so opposed to such an experiment?

[jeffy]

Not speaking about an analysis, though an analysis at periodic intervals during a decoction would certainly contribute to the findings.

I’m talking about active fluorescence tests conducted during a decoction which would tell you about the color change (browning), maillard reactions (if any) and caramelization (if any) occurring during the decoction.

Obviously there’s no tests to detect “maltiness”… you could also reword the question to “What does a decoction contribute to a beer?”

Why would a bunch of brewers be so opposed to such an experiment?

I’m not, but I have no scientific background to offer any data collection evaluations except for my taste receptors.  I would be interested to see the lab differences in decoction vs non decoction data.

[ynotbrusum]

I don’t think this is as simple as testing for one or more variables that are purely measurable in a scientific sense.  Bless you for the thought, but there are immeasurables involved because we just don’t know yet what the distinctions are - we simply perceive them to be different, using our human senses.

[system]

@jeffy

I would be interested to see the lab differences in decoction vs non decoction data.

Agreed.  The results have the potential to be very interesting indeed.

I have no idea where one would start but perhaps there are science/lab oriented people, involved in brewing, with the knowledge to setup, initiate and/or even conduct such an experiment.

[mchrispen]

The AHA has sponsored research study. Go check that out. Not sure if new studies are open yet, there was a back log when I tried to submit one earlier this year. You will need to detail out the plans and could potentially incorporate some lab testing along with blind tasting. Be careful of the budget requirements… this isn’t access to unlimited funds however.

American Homebrewers Association

[Joe_T]

I’m doing a triple decoction pilsner this weekend. It will have an estimated 47 International Maillard Units and will be hopped with 35 FWH units and 9 Whirlpool Hop Units. I also just got my new dissolved oxygen extractor in from Northern Brewer and I’m hoping to get my HSA units to under 3.6. Wish me luck!

[hopfenundmalz]

@Joe_T

I’m doing a triple decoction pilsner this weekend. It will have an estimated 47 International Maillard Units and will be hopped with 35 FWH units and 9 Whirlpool Hop Units. I also just got my new dissolved oxygen extractor in from Northern Brewer and I’m hoping to get my HSA units to under 3.6. Wish me luck!

I hope it tastes great, and is less filling!

[jeffy]

@hopfenundmalz

@Joe_T

I’m doing a triple decoction pilsner this weekend. It will have an estimated 47 International Maillard Units and will be hopped with 35 FWH units and 9 Whirlpool Hop Units. I also just got my new dissolved oxygen extractor in from Northern Brewer and I’m hoping to get my HSA units to under 3.6. Wish me luck!

I hope it tastes great, and is less filling!

Who cares what it tastes like as long as the numbers work out.

[hopfenundmalz]

Has anyone noticed that one the main AHA page there is a recipe for a Maerzen that specifies a decoction mash? It is by Dan Gordon, but he is a German trained brewer, so he has that baggage. 

Dan's Märzen

Just had to point it out as this thread has been going on for a while.

[morticaixavier]

@hopfenundmalz

Has anyone noticed that one the main AHA page there is a recipe for a Maerzen that specifies a decoction mash? It is by Dan Gordon, but he is a German trained brewer, so he has that baggage. 

Dan's Märzen - Beer Recipe - American Homebrewers Association

Just had to point it out as this thread has been going on for a while.

that’s more or less the same as my maerzen recipe minue the caramunich and the decoction.

[pete_baker (pete b)]

Numbers don’t drink beer, and humans don’t drink numbers.

But humans eat pi.

[erockrph]

Numbers don’t drink beer, and humans don’t drink numbers.

But humans eat pi.

And you can’t spell pedantic without pi  ;D

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@erockrph

Numbers don’t drink beer, and humans don’t drink numbers.

But humans eat pi.

And you can’t spell pedantic without pi  ;D

Good call.

[ynotbrusum]

@morticaixavier

@hopfenundmalz

Has anyone noticed that one the main AHA page there is a recipe for a Maerzen that specifies a decoction mash? It is by Dan Gordon, but he is a German trained brewer, so he has that baggage. 

Dan's Märzen - Beer Recipe - American Homebrewers Association

Just had to point it out as this thread has been going on for a while.

that’s more or less the same as my maerzen recipe minue the caramunich and the decoction.

I will agree to decoct, but not lager for 6 weeks - I follow the Brulosopher approach now - so I guess I’m entering the enlightenment period of my brewing…

[klickitat_jim]

If you brew enough and keep the pipeline full lagering a couple months is easy

[ynotbrusum]

@klickitat_jim

If you brew enough and keep the pipeline full lagering a couple months is easy

You don’t know my friends, Jim.  I would have to brew every week, 10 gallon batches to get firmly in the lead.  They got a good thing going…and I welcome it.  It has made me a better brewer to keep the lagers in the pipeline.  I am trying to get them to accept an ale or two now and then.