Discrepancies between Bru'n Water and Brewfather

General Homebrew Discussion
1

I used to use Bru’n Water for everything, but since switching to Brewfather I’ve come to rely on the built-in water calculator (with great results, I’ve been super-happy with the beers I’ve been making).

I initially would enter each recipe in both, but the results were usually close enough so I’ve (lazily) come to just use Brewfather.

My club is participating in a group brew/competition in a few weeks, for a style I’ve not brewed before (an imperial stout that will be aged in a bourbon barrel), and since I’m calculating the water for all of us I wanted to run it all through Bru’n Water as well as a sanity check.

The results are not matching. They’re not even close, in fact.

Brewfather reports a pH of 5.54, Bru’n Water is giving me 5.23. And, using the exact same grain bill, total mash water (calculated as no-sparge, starting with RO), and additions, I’m not even getting the same result for the finished water profile (Ca 62 vs 66, Cl 45 vs. 51).

I’m sure they have different algorithms under-the-hood, but this is a pretty wide discrepancy and I’m not sure which one to go with. We can (and will) measure real pH during the mash, but I’d like to get the water calcs as close as possible going into the brew day especially since four or five other brewers will be relying on me.

(Edit: I feel the mineral additions I’ve drawn up are good in terms of the mouthfeel/flavor contributions, it’s really the pH value I’m mostly concerned with. But if anyone sees something with the final water profile that is concerning for this type of beer, please let me know!)

Would appreciate any guidance here (esp. from Martin B, if he sees this!). I’m inclined to go with Bru’n Water over Brewfather in this case, but doubt has settled in LOL. And I may simply be missing something that I’ve done to cause this.

Thanks in advance!

…

Here is all the recipe and water data, in case it’s relevant:

15 lb (54.6%) — Rahr Pale Malt, 2-Row — Grain — 1.9 °L
5 lb (18.2%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 6.2 °L
2 lb (7.3%) — Weyermann Chocolate Rye — Grain — 244.1 °L
2 lb (7.3%) — Briess Rye Malt — Grain — 3.7 °L
2 lb (7.3%) — Briess Rye, Flaked — Grain — 4 °L
0.5 lb (1.8%) — Crisp Crystal Rye Malt — Grain — 124.2 °L
0.5 lb (1.8%) — Briess Midnight Wheat Malt — Grain — 550 °L
0.5 lb (1.8%) — Briess Roasted Barley — Grain — 300 °L


RO Water Profile (100% dilution in Bru'n Water)

Total mash water: 34.48 liters (9.11 gallons)

Target: 
Ca 62  |  Mg 7  |  Na 33  |  Cl 45  |  SO4 86  |  HCO3 126

Additions (calculate in Brewfather, replicated in Bru'n Water): 
CaSO4 3.5g  |  CaCL 1.4g  |  MgSO4 2.5g  |  NaCl 1.2g  |  Ca(OH)2 1.7g  |  NaHCO3 1.4g

***
Just in case I did it wroing, here's how I entered each malt in Bru'n Water:
2-Row	        Base Malt
Munich I	    Base Malt
Chocolate Rye	Roast
Rye Malt	    Wheat/Oat
Flaked Rye	    Wheat/Oat
Crystal Rye	    Crystal Malt
Midnight Wheat	Roast
Roasted Barley	Roast
2

I’ve found differences in the various water calculations also. I quit checking between them because they simply do not match except on rare occasions and it just adds confusion. A man with two watches never knows what time it is. I decided to pick one and go with it.

Like you, I have settled on Brewer’sFriend because the actual readings on several brewdays were closest to the estimates. I reconcile the slight differences I get vs the model estimate as the limits of my measurements in my brewery using ‘built’ RO water and agricultural ingredients vs near laboratory conditions the model was based on. i know others who choose Bru’n Water because they like the results they get with it better.

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Experience (without calculators) tells me you’re going to be around 5.45 as measured at room temperature. So… somewhere in between the two calculated values, but a bit closer to Brewfather. Not sure how Bru’n Water is getting such a low value, I truly don’t think it will be anywhere near that low, especially since your baking soda addition should help buffer the natural acidity of the specialty malts which do not appear excessive by any stretch (and maybe not even enough for an Impy stout!?). Hopefully Martin will arrive to help shed some light. And maybe my expectation based on experience is a little off too, who knows, you’ll find out of course when you actually brew it. Let us know what you actually end up with, please!

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4

The numbers look reasonable to me in Bru’n Water. The concentration discrepancies could easily come from the quality of the RO water. In Bru’n Water, its not pure since it represents more likely values, but you can adjust them in the water table.

With regard to the pH prediction, I would much rather have the wort pH of a stout be a bit high than low since a dark beer tends to be acrid and sharp when it’s mashing pH is too low.

Be careful with pickling lime since it can start reverting back to chalk if it comes in contact with any moist air. If you add a drop of acid to a small amount of pickling lime and it bubbles, then the lime has chalk in it. If the mixture just gets hot without bubbling, then its fine. Baking soda does not degrade like that and that’s why I prefer to use baking soda. I’d delete the table salt and use more baking soda to produce the mashing pH you want.

4 Likes
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Thanks everyone for the replies. Didn’t mean to take so long to come back, was a crazy week LOL.

Interesting about the pickling lime, I never knew that. Don’t recall why I originally decided to use that over baking soda (maybe because it has calcium?), but I bought a large bag of it way back when and have been using it ever since and I’m quite certain it has absorbed at least some moisture from the air in all of this time. I’ll switch to baking soda! :slight_smile:

I altered the water additions to be:

CaSO4 2.3g | CaCL 3g | MgSO4 3.4g | NaCl 0g | Ca(OH)2 0.6g | NaHCO3 3.5g

(I kept a little bit of the pickling lime for its calcum contribution)

In Brewfather this gives me a calculated pH of 5.53, but in Bru’n Water it’s 5.22. Hmmm… I definitely want ~5.5, and of course we’ll measure on brewday, but this is the confusing part to me.

I don’t recall ever seeing the two be so far off before (although they’ve never been identical in the times I’ve used both).

I’ve double-checked the additions, and also the starting water (I have transferred the twelve Bru’n Water profiles, Yellow Dry/Balanced/Full, etc. plus RO which is not all zeros, into Brewfather so I’m using the same ones).

Just when I think I’ve got my head wrapped around this stuff LOL…