I’ve now read his altbier style book written in '98 and noticed he espouses some dogma that is now being questioned (eg, hot side aeration.) I have a couple of questions regarding his advice, that I was hoping to solicit opinions on.
First, he spends a good deal of time emphasizing the need for a protein rest, and lays out some good reasoning. I have been under the impression that today’s malts, even the German malts, are well-modified and as such no longer need to have this protein rest and that it can even be detrimental. Is this the case, or should I be doing a protein rest for this style? Not sure how much German malting methods have changed in the last twelve years.
Second, he mentions the need to lager on yeast. I have been reading that people typically keg and force-carb prior to lagering, which would seem to be at odds with his advice (although he does call for racking a time or two during lagering). I am doing a diacetyl rest on my alt right now (low 60’s after 10 days at 56F), should I lager the primary or rack to keg and lager in that? His reasoning seems less intuitively appealing on this, since the idea of yeast doing much metabolism at 40F and lower seems unlikely and reduction of gasses like H2S would occur slower since the solubility of gas is greater at lower temps.
I’m not badmouthing this book, in fact for a style book it has a lot of excellent information on general brewing (mash pH, calculating SRM/IBU) as well as great info on alts. Just looking to do the right things to get a nice altbier.
Personally, based on my own experience with that book and brewing MANY altbiers, I think you can safely ignore much of what he wrote. First, malts have changed a lot in the years since the book was written. I find that a long (90-120) minute rest at 148F gives me a very clear and fermentable wort. Second, I’ve never found it necessary to do a d rest for an alt (YMMV, of course) and I have found no benefits to conditioning on the yeast. I feel like the book, like others in that series, are written from the standpoint of a commercial brewer rather than a homebrewer. I advise you to follow your instincts and experience. Use the book as a tool to understanding rather than a bible to follow step by step.
Thanks Denny, I kind of thought the advice was a little dogmatic in several respects. I generally like the idea of a d-rest, not only for attenuating diacetyl but just to be sure things finish as completely as possible. Conditioning on a yeast cake doesn’t make much sense, and he does say you should rack a time or two which doesn’t jibe with the rest of the advice. I’m torn on the protein rest, but I don’t typically have problems with a good rocky head when using the right yeast. I did appreciate his description of the subtle differences between British and German malt, I usually try to get the authentic ingredients but didn’t know exactly what parameters might be affecting the outcome.
I have to say that I got a HUGE egg drop soup wort with a lot of protein coagulation.
Actually I did 100F for 10 min then infuse with 175F water to 124F for 15 min.
Other rests were at 143 F and 161F and Mash Out at 172F with HERMS.
I have to say it was interesting mash schedule.
My HLT was at 175F all the time and system was VERY responsive.
So I have to say I am pumped about this mash process.
Interesting article, although they are using an under-modified malt so the protein rest is certainly more likely to be necessary for that reason. I’m not sure that Global pils and munich malts are going to need this same protein rest to provide adequate medium-chain polypeptides for body and head retention. In fact I’ve read that a protein rest on a well-modified malt can actually break down proteins too much, resulting in the opposite effect. I generally get a really nice egg-drop soup effect using pils malt and proper salts in my water. But I’m certainly open to suggestions.
I don’t have near the experience brewing Alts that Denny does, but since it is my favorite style I probably put more thought and care into brewing those batches and I agree with his comments. I don’t know that there is much need for a diacetyl rest, especially if you use WY1007 and pitch and ferment on the cooler side. Even at 56 deg f that yeast attenuates very well and finishes clean. I’m sure raising the temp can’t hurt, though.
I did enjoy his book, mainly for the historical information on Altbiers and good discussion on the style vs. the technical brewing info.
His recipes always kind of freak me out as he will specify using huge amounts of crystal or aromatic malts…I like to use those malts in moderation and have a hard time believing a recipe with 20% crystal malt will taste good (at least for my tastebuds).
I see his Altstadt recipe is only 5% crystal, that seems reasonable. Supposedly alts from other areas are sweeter, although 20% crystal is a lot and I wouldn’t be wanting that kind of beer.
I usually leave my Alt in primary for 3 weeks but the bulk of fermentation is probably done in 10-12 days at that temp. I like to give it a little bit of time after the Krausen falls back in before I move it to a keg and start lagering.
Thanks thats a good benchmark. I pulled mine out of the 56F chamber after 11days, of course the d-rest temp is only 62-64F. I’ll give it three weeks total before lagering.
Yes, I noticed that many of his recipes and techniques have caused controversy in the home brewing community. 20% crystal, especially when it is dark, does seem to be a bit much.
I haven’t figured out yet what exactly his background in brewing is. But I met him once at a beer festival in Boston.
As Stan Hieronymus (Brewing with Wheat, Brew like a Monk) put it…he is not an expert, but he took the time to find out from experts in authoring his books.
So, I wouldn’t be surprised that Dornbusch doesn’t really have any expertise either, but I would hope that he took the initiative to consult experts in writing his book.
My hat’s off to those who do take the time and effort to author good work. But as we know, the state of the art moves on. The problem is that there aren’t many forums such as this to help dispell the missinformation that still exists until an updated edition comes out.
Just as we home brewers cannot agree on what is actually necessary to make the best beer, professionals cannot agree either. And unless you know that there is controversy about the need for a protein rest you may easily take a few brewer’s, who believe it is necessary, word for it.
I don’t think his advice is faulty and make bad beer. I just think it makes you do more work than what is necessary. Finding that out is part of the continues learning in this hobby. This is why you should read multiple books and try to come to your own conclusion.
The 20% crystal is a different issue. It may have worked for one or two recipes but one should always be skeptical about that much crystal in a recipe. Just like Alton Brown who, IMO, puts way to much salt into his recipes. I have tried many of his recipes but end up noting that next time I’ll have to cut the amount of salt.
My understanding is that he was a commercial brewer. Years ago (maybe 10) a friend of mine emailed him about the seeming strangeness of his recipes. Dornbusch wrote back a very good defense of his reasoning. Didn’t convince me, but it was at least some interesting info. I’m trying to find that email.
EDIT: Found it! From 2004…
"Thank you for your two inquiries about Alt and Sticke.
Let me first respond to the Sticke question about replacing carared with melanoidin malt.
Carared is one of the typical malts used in Germany to impart ¡°reddishness¡± to Alts, Vienna lagers, and similar brews. Carared is slightly aromatic and contributes a relatively mild maltiness as well as some body to the finished beer. I recall having been told by a maltster that a grain bill should contain no more than 25% carared or 20% melanoidin malt, but I do not know why this limitation.
Replacing the carared with melanoidin malt is perfectly OK, but I would use a little less melanoidin than carared, if you are looking for a comparable result. This reason lies in the different specs:
Melanoidin malts tend to be slightly darker (the Weyermann product, for instance, comes in a color range of 23 ¨C 31¡ãL/SRM, compared to the Weyermann Carared at 16 ¨C 23¡ãL/SRM). Melanoidin malts tend to be slightly more acidic than carared malts. This enhances flavor stability, but you should check you mash pH. (Perhaps this is the reason for the 20%-limit on melanoidin malt? If the mash becomes too acidic, the diastatic enzymes won¡¯t work!) Melanoidin malts also have excellent friability and fairly low ¦Â-glucan values. This enhances lautering performance. They are more malt-aromatic (which is OK in an Alt. including a Sticke) and add more body and mouthfeel to the finished beer (also OK). Importantly, however, melanoidin malts (as opposed to carareds) add deep-amber to red-brown, rather than brilliantly reddish, color values to the beer. For the Sticke, therefore, mostly because of the color contribution, I would use no more than perhaps 15% melanoidin malt (instead of the 20% carared in my Zymurgy recipe).
As for the amount of crystal malt I mention in some of the Alt recipes in my book, the answer is more complex:
I tried to cover the wide range of Altbiers that I have tasted both in Germany and in the US. At one end of the spectrum is the Schmalz¡¯s Alt from Minnesota, for instance (see p. 114 – not sure if it is still available nowadays). It seems to contain a TON of highly roasted malts. At the other end of the spectrum is the Schumacher Alt, which is made from just one type of Munich malt (which I happen to know is Weyermann Munich Type I producing a wort of 5.1 - 7.3¡ãL/SRM ). The Enderlein Alt recipe (pp. 105/106) is based entirely on this brew.
The crystal quantities I mention in some of the recipes are deliberate. No typos. In D¨¹sseldorf, there are clear differences between, say a F¨¹chschen or Uehrige Alt, on the one hand, and a Hannen or Diebels Alt, on the other. The former are lighter-copper in color with very little residual sweetness in the finish, while the latter are more reddish-brown with a much maltier aftertaste. I happen to know that the color in the darker D¨¹sseldorf Altbiers comes from the addition by those breweries of a malt-essence coloring agent called SINAMAR. This is a patented tincture made by the Weyermann Malting Company of Bamberg. It was invented n 1903. It is made entirely made from a vacuum-evaporated, unhopped beer brewed just from dehusked Weyermann Carafa malt. Because the grain base of this product is dehusked, there is no bitterness associated with this liquid, just dark concentrated color. Because it is made entirely from barley, it meets the requirements of the German Reinheitsgebot, which makes it a legal ¡°additive¡± to beer.
When I wrote the manuscript for the Alt book in 1997/8, SINAMAR was not available in North America, so I did not mention it then. For the darker versions of Altbier, therefore, I resorted to crystal malt for color in the book. To avoid roasty notes, though, I kept the color value to no more than 60¡ãL. Now, since last year, SINAMAR is available in the United States, where it is imported and distributed by Crosby & Baker. Of course, I would mention SINAMAR as an option today.
The grain bill of my own commercial Alt, which won a bronze medal at the 2000 GABF, contained about 15% crystal from Briess, at 60¡ãL. As a test, I once made the same Altbier by replacing the Briess crystal with an equivalent amount (calculated on color value, not weight) of Carastan Malt. This malt is roasted at about 300¡ãF (150¡ãC). The mathematical color value of the two brews was supposed to be identical, but visually the Carastan beer turned out almost as dark as a Porter, compared to the brilliant copper-red color of the Briess crystal beer. The two beers also tasted completely differently. The Carastan Alt tasted too acrid and toffee-toasty to be an Alt. The Briess Alt, by contrast, was even identified in a blind taste test by the best-known German-language beer writer, Conrad Seidl, as being an authentic Alt.
From this I conclude that you can both succeed and fail in making an authentic Altbier with crystal. What I was after in the recipes in which I used crystal (and I tested them all!), was color without roastiness. If you rely on crystal for color, they key, at least in my experience, is to get the right BRAND of crystal. You want a crystal malt that is stewed longer at lower temperatures rather than faster at higher temperatures. Also, you want a crystal malt that is produced in a roasting drum, not in a kilning box. For these reasons, I disclosed on p. 34 of the book, that I had used Briess malt for all the test batches. I did not disclose the brand to give Briess a plug, but because I knew the recipes worked with this brand. Weyermann malts work well too, by the way.
I understand why some people do not believe I should have used crystal at all (or up to 15%) in the recipes, but the reality is that these critics may not be sufficiently familiar with ALL the varieties of Alt that are and have been brewed in and around D¨¹sseldorf, as well as in Westphalia (with lots of wheat in the grain bill), Frankfurt, Dortmund, Hanover (with lots of crystal!), and even Bavaria (with plenty of residual sweetness). My goal was to be both authentic and comprehensive, while supplying recipes that could actually be made in North America with the ingredients available (then!).
I hope this explains, why there is crystal in some (though not all!) of the Alt brews in my book. The explanation I am giving you here is probably something that I should have included explicitly in the original book manuscript. If you could rewrite the book today, I certainly would do so. Please, feel free to disseminate this information to everybody in your discussion group, and keep me in the loop.
Cheers.
Horst
P.S. Amidst the many complimentary reviews the Alt book has received since publication, there was a small sprinkling of inexplicably vicious and dismissive attacks, mostly by self-appointed, self-important know-it-all experts who have obviously never been in a real Altbier brew house or talked to a real Altbier brew master. I did not grace any of these uncivil broadsides with a reply, because their opinionated and dogmatic tone made dialog a priori impossible. However, I gladly reply to your query. Thank you for being a gentleman."
Interesting reading, I’m surprised that you would use crystal simply for color when it brings so much with it. You could get neutral color from a little dab of dehusked carafa added late in a mash. I do think there are sweeter alts though, and in this country BluCreek makes a fairly sweet alt that is pretty tasty.
Thanks for posting this. I think it explains a lot. This part in particular might be key in understanding his recipes:
[quote]I understand why some people do not believe I should have used crystal at all (or up to 15%) in the recipes, but the reality is that these critics may not be sufficiently familiar with ALL the varieties of Alt that are and have been brewed in and around D¨¹sseldorf, as well as in Westphalia (with lots of wheat in the grain bill), Frankfurt, Dortmund, Hanover (with lots of crystal!), and even Bavaria (with plenty of residual sweetness). My goal was to be both authentic and comprehensive, while supplying recipes that could actually be made in North America with the ingredients available (then!).
[/quote]
Many Germans, me included, have not been exposed to a variety of Altbiers. They are a very localized beer style and except for some of the larger brands, like Diebels, only available in northwest Germany. One you may be able to say that one dosn’t like an Alt with that much crystal but you may not be able to say that this much crystal is out of line for an Alt. The same would go for bitterness, I think. German Alts tend to be less bitter than many American brewers think. Their bitterness level tends to be similar to North German Pils styles.
