If you get to know the right people some of those charges can be waived. Talk to your local district councilman. Promise him a fundraiser when your doors are open.
Yes, it is very expensive to increase capacity or add new connections to municpal water systems. It’s also extremely expensive to operate and maintain the storage, treatment and distribution systems that provide most of us with safe, reliable and (in the pacific northwest notably high) quality drinking water. Not to mention fantastic brewing water. Every time someone requests permission to add or expand a connection’s capacity, greater demands are placed on the existing system capacity and infrastructure.
I wouldn’t hold my breath hoping to get a waiver on charges but I would recommend three things.
- Invite a city water engineer to visit your site and talk about your plans. Again, while I doubt any fees would be waived I have seen instances where SDCs are phased in based on an average annual consumption agreement. As your production and consumption increases, you renew your agreement until the full SDC is met.
- Consider adding a submeter that will capture your “production” water or more specifically, water that is not returned to the wastewater system. These days many wastewater treatment agencies will provide a credit for volumes that you are able to demonstrate do not return to their system. Most wastewater agencies will bill you for wastewater based on your winter average potable water consumption. You might be able to save a lot of money by deducting your production water that goes out the door as opposed to down the drain.
- I bet you’ve already thought about it but just in case, try to capture and reuse your cooling water. Single pass cooling is a tremendously inefficient use of potable water.
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We might do that for a future expansion, but for now we are sticking with a CLT and smaller pipe. The same goes for trying to get the fees waived.
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We will definitely add a submeter if they will credit us, that is still TBD.
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This is certain.
Tom,
CLT is the way to go.
Just size it appropriately.
If you have 1" water main, it can deliver fair amount of water.
Even with lager water main you would want to have CLT.
I think you’re right. Many breweries in the area start without them because our ground water is generally cold enough all year round. But given the potential water supply issues, adding a CLT is a pretty good solution. We have ordered a 30 bbl glycol jacketed CLT for our 15 bbl system, which I think is big enough. Would you agree? The HLT will be 45 bbls if the floor will support it.
Generally I would agree.
it depends how are you going to brew on it.
If you would brew around the clock you would need bigg
I would agree.
Hopefully I will not have to deal with many of the listed reasons for huge increases in start-up. After things get moving it may be a different story. I will be occupying a building that’s currently a wine bar, so many of the necessary items are already present. There’s even a floor drain in the brewing area! Not saying the pitch is correct but it’s a good start. The place has a bar, double sink with dishwasher for glass ware, looks really nice in the “taproom” area and I have most all the equipment for the 2 bbl system. Ramps for handicap access are present so compliance with the ADA looks good. The only problem is there’s no natural gas in the building so I’ll have to continue using propane and brew just outside the garage door that’s there. Hopefully that isn’t going to be a problem since with all the other costs going electric won’t really be feasible. At least I won’t need an exhaust hood or any ventilation items. The town is small and it seems like they really want a brewery to be able to tap into the huge craft beer market in Asheville. Even the town Mayor who also works for the County said he’ll do all he can to make sure all goes well. Having the township on my side is a huge relief!! The rest of the brewing community has also been a huge help with figuring out the costs for liability insurance, tax questions, TTB paperwork questions, and other logistics that have me scratching my head. As long as I can get the Conditional Use Permit approved by the town committee for manufacturing alcohol I should be in good shape.
Do the plans and 2D CAD drawings need the raised seal by an engineer? If so that will be a cost I didn’t anticipate…
What are the other costs? Propane is massively more expensive than electricity. For a nano system, I wouldn’t consider anything other than electric.
If you do go with propane, make sure your health codes will allow food production outdoors. What if it rains? You might want to at least figure out what a hood would cost to put in.
Yeah, I’d highly recommend going electric. Why is it “out of the question?” I used two 5500 watt low density element for my 3 bbl brewery when I first got started. Only part that was a problem was clenaing the elements.
there’s an overhead roof just outside of the garage door so no worries with inclement weather. it’s a given that it will suck outside in the cold with the garage door open, but it will be a price i will have to pay. maybe i’ll have to pull the brew rig up to the garage door and not go outside. to go electric with elements, control panels, exhaust hoods and permits, potential for scorching, cleaning elements, very limited electrical experience and everything else that goes with it i’d rather stick with what i’m comfortable with. propane costs will be the least of my worries. over time there will be definite conveniences added, but i need to see if it’s even worth my time. right now the overhead is very reasonable and the demand may very well make it at least profitable. at the very least it will be a good learning experience to live and grow by.
there are numerous breweries in the area (within 30miles) doing legit 10 gallon breweries on Sabco systems that i can’t believe are turning a profit, but somehow they are with staff and all. possibly the “best” brewery in town is doing 1 bbl batches and is doing really well. i’m hoping to have even half their success. considering i have a 2 bbl system and can double their capacity hopefully i will be so lucky. it sounds ridiculous but it is true. if i can sell out of beer then i can consider this a success and will consider expanding or at least adding some conveniences. if not, well, then you can all say i told you so… time will tell. 5/5 will be the “condition use permit” town committee determination so if that doesn’t happen then nothing will for the time being.
Honestly, unless they are serving other beer along side their own I DON’t BELIEVE anyone is making a profit on a 10 gallon Sabco system. It’s just not possible unless they are selling pints for $50 each.
When people running 10 gallon systems talk about profit, they are rarely considering everything that it costs to produce and serve the beer. It is easy to make a “profit” selling beer, especially if rent, utilities, and NNN are free because it is at your house or part of another business that is paying those costs anyway, and if you are not paying yourself for the time to make or pour the beer. It’s like kids with a lemonade stand who think they made $3 selling lemonade at $.25 per glass, never considering that they didn’t buy the sugar, lemons, water, cups, pitcher, ice, ice maker or trays, electricity to make the ice, table, chairs, cardboard for the sign, markers for the sign, and a few other things I’m probably leaving out.
It’s fine if it pays for the cost of doing business and you are doing it because you love it, but to me that is not the same as making a profit. In my book, you are not (and we will not be) profitable unless you can afford to pay someone (or yourself) a fair wage to do all of the work, pay all of the bills, put money away for maintenance when something inevitably breaks, and have a penny left over. That penny is your profit.
I know some people running nanos in my area. The only way they are “profitable” is when they do it on their own property so they have no lease costs to deal with, and several of the other costs are just part of their regular household costs. No one submeters their own garage. They also either keep their day jobs or have spouses to help pay the bills. Maybe they can pull a little money occasionally or afford to upgrade equipment, but they are not paying themselves what their time is worth. I think Mic of Dungeness Brewing is a good example here, maybe he will weigh in.
This is not meant to discourage anyone from doing it, but don’t expect to make a living at it. If you think that is the right path for you and will help you build your name while you build a bigger brewery, or if you are doing it as a hobby business, go for it! There are success stories of people who started small and built a good brand that became a reliable source of income. But I ran the numbers, and for my area and the associated costs I didn’t think we could make enough money for it to be my full-time job with less than a 10 bbl system.
Tom, this sums it up so concisely. Should be a sticky.
I don’t know if I would say it is concise, but thanks 