BrewBama pointed me towards that. It’s very easy to get caught in a web in this hobby because there is A LOT of variable information out there. Hell, in this thread we have seen a link to a BYO article where the author realized he may have misled people. There is plenty of confusion to go around especially if you’re a by-the-numbers, weekend brewer like I am. I do not have the skill set that Silver_Is_Money has crunching those numbers, etc. so I just need to go by what my tastebuds tell me is working. I have done quite a bit of simplification lately and things are clicking better. I have also been on a crazy brewing tear lately because we have had a lot of guests at the house this summer… consumption is up so production has to keep up! 
PS: ‘Days of yore’ is my colloquialism for the days between which pH was invented and then routinely utilized and the days following soon after when homebrewing was legalized, after which the literature is dominated by home brewers, many of which morphed into commercial microbrewers, and others of which morphed into brewing ‘how too’ writers, and all of whom merely took their non peer scrutinized (or reviewed) and endlessly parroted (including in print) misnomers and bad habits about beer brewing into the commercial microbrew realm and ‘how too’ realm along with them.
That is the perception, but although he realized that with his flawed perception of ATC he indeed misled (whereby he humbly ate crow), a careful read of part 2 indicates that he never once retracted his stance upon which he viewed the brewers of yore as mashing at mash temperature measured pH’s centered upon a mash temperature mid-point ideal of around 5.4 pH (which would be a room temperature mid-point ideal of around 5.6-5.65 pH). The ending line indicates that he is sticking to his original opinion, in defiance of all of the endlessly parroted post brewers of yore blather to the contrary. I tip my hat to him.
It explains why so many brewers see so much variable information. I mean, the hobby itself has a lot of variables (water, equipment, process, different malts, mashing techniques, etc) and many people who are just trying very hard to help might pass on information that they believe to be true except it may not translate over to everyone else’s brewing. So many forums with so many people who might be a little too loose with the information, so many books, podcasts, opinions, etc. It would be fun to take a high-end Siebel class on some of this stuff and see what information is important, which can be ignored and what comes down to personal preference.
Agreed. I read all of that and his response was put together nicely and not only explained his original concept but also clarified some things that have confounded brewers for years. It’s good to see that you’re not alone in scratching your head over a concept.
Aren’t we talking about two different things (offset between mash pH as measured at room and mash temp vs. the drop in pH that occurs during the boil due to factors other than sample temperature)?
Regarding the days of yore, is it possible that “optimal” pH targets have changed along with malt production and mashing regimens, etc.?
That’s a good point.
By the way, Ken - This whole thread started because you had clarity issues and some flabby beers. The thing that worries me is if mashing higher and not adding enough end-of-boil acid to drop the pH into the correct range, wouldn’t that produce more flabby beers or am I missing something?
1) I don’t think so. Bryan was arguing that he never saw a mash pH differential of magnitude 0.30 to 0.35 when he measured mash pH at both room and mash temp.
2) If you can prove to me that the large commercials who invented the science of yore as to pH with regard to brewing have changed from targeting 5.4 pH as measured at mash temperature to targeting pH 5.4 as measured at room temperature, I’ll think that you are onto something.
A lot of people these days are parroting that the world is flat. If for any reason they perchance became a vast majority, would that make the world flat?
A lot of people these days are parroting that the nominal idealized mash target of 5.40 pH has always been a room temperature measure. If for any reason they perchance became a vast majority, such as they indeed have, would that alone make them correct?
I suppose not.
All this time I’ve been mashing at too low a pH. Basically, I don’t need to acidify the mash with lactic acid for a pilsner or helles with 100% RO water and salts added to get a room temp pH of about 5.5 or so. I’ve been targeting 5.3 at room temp for years and adding 1mL lactic acid at the end of the boil and I always enjoyed the results.
What could I expect to observe if mashing at pH 5.5 room temp? Higher mash efficiency? Better malt flavor in the finish beer? More body in the finished beer? Better wort and beer clarity?
What if I mash at pH 5.6 room temp for an Irish Red and do not add any acid at the end of the boil? Will the beer be flabby?
I don’t really expect you to answer these questions, I just feel like I all of a sudden know nothing… ;D
What if we just don’t friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it’s about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?
:o 8)
Well, okay, and then maybe add a little acid at the END of the mash / before the boil, maybe. Or not.
Dude! That isn’t helping clear up any confusion! ;p
Mashing at a room temperature measured pH of 5.6 (or thereabouts) makes it imperative that a properly computed and executed pH adjustment to a room temperature targeted pH of 5.1 to 5.2 pH post boil and cooling is undertaken during the boil, at the latest with ~10 minutes of boil time remaining, and definitely before adding fining.
The main benefits in doing it in just this way are in maximizing hop utilization (and thereby minimizing requisite hop mass), and maximizing hot break, and minimizing fining mass. And for those who filter, in minimizing the mass of added plate and frame filtrate media required. A final ‘potential’ benefit is in aiding the yeast in their endeavor to adjust the wort to their desired final beer pH (while reducing the potential for yeast stress while they accomplish this task).
I’m not of the opinion that conversion yield will be measurably improved. Nor am I of the opinion that beer flavor will necessarily (if at all) be improved.
Great info. Thanks!
I had a couple of beers where I mashed and boiled with a mid-5s pH and I did not add a late boil addition of acid. It may have been my mind playing with me but I was thinking that one that I tasted WAS a little flabby. So I added 1ml of lactic acid right to the keg! :o I tried it again a couple days later and it was very nice and not only that… I had some people over last weekend and many said that their favorite beer of the four on tap was that particular beer. It’s not the type of thing I would want to do on a regular basis but if you can add salts, etc. to a beer post-fermentation then you can add some lactic as well. So I think you have a way to address it if necessary until you’re more comfortable with it.
Yeah, this should be on a t-shirt. A big t-shirt but a t-shirt nonetheless. 
[emoji106]
[opinion]
When I brew beer I don’t make it a science experiment. I let the beer make itself and I just move liquid from vessel to vessel. I do this for fun and a good pint of HomeBrew.
Instead of doing all this calculus, it’s a whole lot easier to simply 1) mash grains that require it, leave out those specialty grains that don’t, 2) use distilled, RO, or other low TDS water, 3) along with 1 tsp CaCl or gypsum or a combination of the two equalling 1 tsp for the calcium. After the mash is complete, add the specialty malts that don’t require mashing for a 30 min hot steep either in the mash tun or in the kettle. 1,2,3 Easy peasy.
You can take a mash pH reading if you want to but as many times as I’ve done this now you don’t need to because it always falls in spec on it’s own.
pH in the mash only goes wacka doodle when you mash a bunch of specialty malts or crazy pH/high TDS water that screw with pH. Once the mash is complete, pH takes care of itself.
[/opinion]
But then we’d be homebrewers…
No adding acid to your mash or end of boil to drop pH at all? I like the simplicity of this, but worry about pH being too high for post-boil.
Good one, Denny!