So would you recommend single infusion of steps without decoction?
I would do single infusion.
Have you performed these processes/techniques and compared? According to another thread you started you are only a dozen or so batches into brewing. Are you parroting information that you read someplace else? You obviously have a wide breadth of knowledge, but how much of it is practical?
Denny you sir are not one I like to fuss with, but I found what you asked for. Guys like
Gordon Strong
Jamil Zainasheff
Ted Hausotter
Harold Gulbransen
did a taste test brewing Bavarian hefeweizen 4 way test on fermentation temps, and mash profiles.
Head Retention best to worse:
Single Decoction
Protein Rest Single Decoction
Ferulic Acid rest Single Decoction
Single Infusion Mash
Panel Assessment of Flavor I believe best to worse (low fermentation temp @ 62F was preferred)
Single Decoction “smooth & well rounded, the favored Weizen of the Panel”
Ferulic Acid Rest Single Decoction & Protein Rest Single Decoction “very similar and sharper with more estery and acidic flavors”
Single Infusion – much less flavor and much less interesting
Melanoidins are colors, not flavors. You can’t taste them.
“Two malts with high melanoidins are Vienna and Munich malts. The flavor profile is much different and these malts give you a richer Melanoidin flavor”
“The other method is to include extra boiling into your brewing day. A typical one hour boil will generate a small amount of melanoidin. This is evidenced by the darkening of the wort that occurs during the process. As you might imagine, adding extra time to the boil will increase the amount that is formed.”
http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/melanoidin.htm
creating melanoidins in your wort does affect the color, it also affects the flavor. So I won’t say your wrong but I do believe there to be a change in flavor as well.
You’re awesome at Google.
I don’t think you can call that a blind test. Sounds like a bunch of dudes just tasting beer.
Having done one single step and one multi rest (via dilution), my next hefe will be back to single rest, possibly just with mash out. If I could apply direct heat, I’d experiment again. My execution was by no means perfect, but I’m keen to experiment with recipe issues before considering another step mash attempt. The inclusion of 3% acidulated malt made far more of a difference to the taste to me, than anything to do with the steps.
FWIW, I plan a single step around 153f with maybe 8% caramalt (13L), 70% wheat and 22% pilsner. The WLP300 dries things out enough I think, without needing a lower mash.
More to do with my gear and brief experience though, than anything scientific!
** Edit those websites, byo.com, craftbeer.com, howtobrew.com, and fermentarium.com is what got my feet off the ground and learning how to brew before I was gifted books like:
Mastering Homebrew the complete guide to brewing delicious beer by Randy Mosher
Malt A practical Guide from field to brewhouse by John Mallett
Designing Great Beers: The ultimate guid to brewing classic beer styles by Ray Daniels
The complete joy of homebrewing 4th ed. by charlie papazian
The brewmasters bible by stephan Snyder
All of which offer up decoction as a technique essential to Hefeweizen, Dunkelweizen, Weizenbock, Krystal weiss and Weissbeir.
I know I know, I did find some literature to back up my statement. Not because I know it all, or can act like it. Because I am not credible based on what I can type, but on what others have researched. I do not have the experience either you or Denny has. I won’t surpass denny for a long long time… I need atleast 2000+ brews to catch up on. Well before I get to what denny is at now, right Denny? I mean, it is no mistery, I just finished my first All Grain brew, and just worked out a new system, and have Krompus at Midnight under my belt. I only have 3 partial mash (full conversion on grains) with dme to the boil kettle in brewing german wheats. Not an expert. I have only 28 brews under my belt, only 5 of which over 2 gal… Sooo yeah, I think a newbie is a good term for me still.
for the record, it was Bing, haha jk I know that wasn’t the point you were getting at. 8)
I think Denny’s point was (and he can back me up or offer counterpoint if need be) that if these guys didn’t test it blind then their results/impressions/etc. are not really all that credible.
The human mind is a complex thing and unless an experiment is conducted that can eliminate as much of the bias and preference from the matter then the results are not useful.
Thanks for that list. In case you weren’t aware (like I wasn’t aware of that list) I have run my own experiment wiht many brewers and tasters…start on pg. 25…http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
And Picobrew is dead wrong on melanoidins. I’ll mention it to them. But it’s not the melanoidins that create flavor. The same Maillard reactions that create melanoidins also create flavors.
Can’t keep up with you guys… ;D
My personal opinion of why some brewers prefer decoction mashing is that it is much more forgiving in relation to pH. Decoction mashing works better at higher than optimum pH (I don’t really need to post a link to Kai’s site do I?) So, of course it makes better beer, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Now, assume you’re me and have a pretty good handle on pH and dial it in, that’s a whole nother ball of wax… I see no mention of pH measurements and certainly no adjustments were made for the infusion mash in Gulbranden’s work. and that brings us to what Egg beat me to, pH is key IMO. How you get there is the fun, whether it be boiling, Ca salts, or acid malt…
so out of 42 testers the results of decoction vs single infusion is about dead even in your xbmt? But the preferred beer was chosen to be the beer that had used a decoction step while mashing, and it tasted more malty. I am not sure I understand the basis of your argument although the results are shown that except for body (which I am not the one to answer the why’s in this discussion) and your testers not being able to discern which brew was decocted.
Denny you sir may be right, I have not tried a single infusion yet on a German wheat and now I want to try the pragmatic approach.
What you’re missing is that if you combine those who preferred single infusion with those who had no preference, it’s more than those who preferred decoction. That says to me that decoction does not make a beer that more people prefer. At least in that one experiment. We intend to re do it for the podcast.
I’m definitely not telling you not tpo do a decoction…I’m saying trying both and decide for yourself. It’s your beer and you get to make that decision. Just because Drew and I, along with a lot of other people, don’t see value in decoction shouldn’t be a reason for you not to do it I still do decoctions once or twice a year to see if I’m missing anything. I’m willing to admit that I might be and keep an open mind. But at this point, repeated testing has not proven to me that decoction is worth the effort to make a better beer.
I will do a decoction because I think it’s easier than a step infusion. Or at least more successful. It’s hard to do more than one step in a cooler IME and actually get to the final temp you want to hit.
I liked my double decocted weiss, but I also liked my single infusion version. No side by side for me… that’s too much work 
If you’re interested, it was a giant step from 111 to 151, and then a thin decoction to mash out.
I tried various step mashes in a cooler and had disastrous results but that was before online calculators. Not sure if they work well or not but I would err on the side of caution. I am not opposed to decoction as a method to step mash and will not argue you get better efficiency that way. That being said, I do like the hochkurz mash schedule and find a slight but noticeable improvement with that technique even though I only hold each rest 15m. I direct fire in a smaller 5G pot, and “mash out” to 180F and transfer to cooler to lauter which gets me back down to 168F although I am not fastidious about the actual temp since I use distilled water for german stuff. I often wonder if the 168F tannin thing is a myth. I regularly exceed this and notice no ill effects but I am fastidious about pH.
IMO step mashes in a cooler are pretty easy. Just stir in boiling water til you get the temp you’re going for. Where I get into trouble is if I try to calculate the addition. I fine it easier and more accurate to just go “seat of the pants”.
Yeah, a single step works fine. What got me in the past was using a calculator and having it tell me that I had a large enough cooler to do multiple steps, and then finding out that wasn’t true. 
Were you using boiling water?
I like to avoid moving larger quantities of boiling water when I can, but it is just not possible sometimes.
Yep. I think two steps worked out ok but I ended up with more mash and less sparge than I wanted. Although at this point I’m not opposed to no-sparge, either, so that’s an option.
After reading all this and all the attached article, I think I am going to try a a 2 step mash. Going to do a 20 minute protein rest at 122 degrees and then a single Sacch rest. What temp would be best for the Sacch rest? I am thinking around 152 degrees.
I would then finish with a mash out at 170.
I hope this makes sense. Step mashing is new to me and I may not be thinking through all this correctly.