I’ve never had IBU measured, so I suppose I’m not certain, but I haven’t notice anything too crazy outside of what I’d expect based on BeerSmith predictions.
Such as ass, you are!!!
:o
I believe that’s been well established!
Fair response to say you expected it. As far as aroma goes, I’ve always been able to tell difference in dry hop vs not. Kind of what I was getting at with expectations for aroma and where you get it from.
Dry hop without hop stand vs dry hop with hop stand would also be interesting. I wonder if the hop stand is adding a cooked (“mulch”) aroma along with hoppy aromas that might be spoiling the beer.
I don’t think the distinction between flavour & aroma makes sense in interpreting the results - one is a subset/superset of the other, so they aren’t independent qualities.
Also interesting seeing in the comments here and on brulosophy how many brewers say they get flavor from dry hops and flavor from flameout additions (traditionally considered “aroma hops”), not realising flavor & aroma are largely the same thing. Perhaps the proof of the pudding would be two brews with and without midboil additions (traditionally defined as flavor hops) - I reckon there would be no difference between them if IBU level matched.
Would be interesting if you tasted the same two beers two months from now to text shelf life. I have found dry hop beers to be extraordinary within the first 4-6 weeks and then quickly fall off while hoppy beers with flame out additions only, while they do drop off significantly in hop flavor and aroma but remain cleaner and more drinkable and don’t pick up the oxidized hop flavors like dry hop beers do.
I’d like to see that, too. I agree but additionally I still feel that dry hop character lasts longer on beers dry hopped in clear beer vs end of fermentation.
The end of fermentation addition enhances linalool, geraniol, and citronellol. Recently I read that those are some of the most volitile aroma compounds in beer. That agrees with your observation.
Out of curiosity, where did you get that information from? I’m of the opinion that the main benefit of dry-hopping at the end of fermentation is that less oils are pulled out of solution by adsorption to falling trub. The boiling points of the major sesquiterpine aroma compounds that we attribute to hop aroma (including the ones you mention above) are all above the boiling point of water. I question the old brewing adages regarding the volatility of these compounds.
Stan Hieronymus has referenced it in a Zymurgy article, among other places. I experienced the increased geraniol, which is why I now rack to secondary before dry hopping.
Lots of reading of what Stan Hieronymus has to say about bio transformations. You can find some of his referrences online. Also some statements by industry people.
I’ve read and listened to many of Stan’s articles and presentations on the topic, as well as many of his source materials and published studies. What Stan was referring to was the biotransformation that happens by the yeast, which can indeed convert linalool to geraniol. What is interesting is that there are other studies which show that yeast also convert geraniol to linalool as well. The end result of biotransformation is probably going to look different based on yeast strain, starting oil content of your hops, etc. And by getting most of your yeast out of suspension before starting your dry hops, you take biotransformation out of the equation and probably increase your repeatability and predictability in your dry hopping.
What I’m calling into question is specifically the idea that hop oils themselves are somehow fleeting and highly volatile. It just doesn’t add up for me.
I just started listening to the most recent BeerSmith podcast on my way to work this morning. Charlie Bamforth just dropped some random, interesting info that made me think of this. They have discovered that manganese can be a significant source of oxidation in beer, and that dry hopped beers are among the highest in manganese.
Charlie said they’re just starting to look into this, and hat further research is needed todetermine how much of an effect the manganese would have. But listening to this set off all kinds of light bulbs in my head. It would seem to connect the dots pretty well here, if the actual act of dry hopping is boosting hop character only to be its own downfall by increasing oxidation at the same time. Hopefully more research is done on this and the results become available to the homebew community. I’m quite interested to see how this plays out.
Off to listen to Dr. Bamforth! Thanks.
Yeah ,good info.
Makes sense. My experience also is that dry hopped beers are great for the first 2-3 months and then go downhill more steeply than other beers, whereas hopstand beers are more stable over time, if less intense when young.