hmm - I think i am going to try this on my next batch (IPA), albeit with a hopback, recircing into the BK…
I have gotten a very nice noble hop aroma and flavor in a Pils I brewed with only FWH and bittering hops. I’ll have to try this again but I thing I do get aroma and flavor from FWH, But you have to keep in mind that this flavor and aroma will have a different character.
As for the Hopstand, I have tried this with good success on a Pale Ale. The hop aroma/flavor was very nice and not as raw and grassy as the dryhopped version that was the other half of this side-by-side. To reduce the DMS formation I dropped the temperature for the hop stand to 80 C and let the wort sit a this temp for 30 min after adding the hops.
I did not account for the additional isomerization from both the newly added hops and the alpha acids that are already in the wot from previous hop additions. I don’t remember the hop stand beer being more bitter but I also had a minor boil-over with this beer in which I may have lost some bittering hops.
Kai
A friend brewed a German pilsner, and due to circumstances beyond his control, could not cool it for over an hour. Compared to his regular pilsner, it was considerably more bitter. My estimate from a taste test was ibu’s increased from upper 30’s to over 50.
I forgot to mention that it is all dependent on the base beer (i.e. IIPA or Pils). I agree that the flavor (and some aroma) from fwh in a lighter base such as pilsner is fantastic.
Does anyone have experience using the lowered temp hopstand method and also (on a different occasion) using a hopback? I’m curious how you thought the two compaired.
I think you can substantially limit the IBU increase and DMS production by dropping the temp for the hop stand by 20 C (40 F) for example. That lower temp should still be hot enough for good aroma and flavor extraction from the hops.
Kai
How is it possible to have hop flavor without aroma?
Specifically what other than bittering compounds sensed by the tongue and retronasal perception of volatile aromatic compounds contributes to hop “flavor”?
That’s pretty deep, johnf. You’re asking which flavor out of these: sweet, salty, sour, bitter or umami?
A long vigorous boil gets rid of the pre cursors. Many breweries use a long whirlpool. Kiwanda Cream ale from Pilican Pub has no boil hops. They add the hops to the whirlpool for an hour, and get 25 IBU’s measured. That one wins a lot of awards.
Firestone Walker uses a very big charge at KO, and lets those stand. I have a clone from the CYBI episode, and it has more than enough bitterness. Plenty of hop flavor too. A big charge of Dry hops give the aroma.
I think Chris wrote an article about hopstanding about a year ago… posted it on NB’s board if I remember right. Somebody posted that quickly chilling gives better clarity? I’ve tried using an IC and a Plate Chiller… the PC cooled the wort to the mid 60’s very quickly but my beer still wasn’t clear. I’ve found that letting my wort cool overnight doesn’t taste like cooked corn or cabbage either. It doesn’t matter how long you take to let it chill in that respect as far as I can tell… I think its another one of those myths being carried on by the hord. ;D The only time I “have to” use a chiller is in the summer, even then I could just put my keg in the creek… did that last year too… it sat in flowing water about 6 inches deep and cooled overnight. I’ve noticed no ill effects from slow chilling. I’m also getting far less paranoid about wild yeast and or bacteria… just cleanup well and on brewday… RDWHAHB and go with it. I’ve even had my arm in chilled wort up to my elbow… shoulda been a really nasty batch that one… but amazingly 11 grams of dry yeast somehow got the jump on all the other critters and beat them out of the gate if you can imagine that. :o ;D 
Reminds me of what we used to drink back in college. Everyone would bring a bottle of clear liquor, dump it in a big plastic trash can, add some Hawaiian Punch mix, and then stir it by sticking your whole arm in there. It was called a “Hairy Buffalo” cuz it’d eat the hairs right off your arm.
Hmmm, seems that a late chill Hopstand method for increased hop character
lacks real documentation regarding how to “exactly” calculate BU contribution.
Thanks very much and some of the ideas gleaned from the responses include:
Thanks Dean, I finally found it. Chris thinks about 10% more BU’s with this method.
Link: Mashweasel
I guess I will find out what it tastes (as in extra bitterness) like to me. She is just now starting at 56 degrees.
Cheers.
Yep… I remember the Hairy Buffalo, mostly we just called them Trash Can parties though. But those already had a significant amount of alcohol in them to kill any little critters compared to fresh cooled wort. I don’t know… I think that too much worrying is just as bad as too many cooks… RDWHAHB. I worried way too much for a while with brewing, and the more I worried the less my beer became. Its the simple, less worrisome things that really shine. 8)
Honestly, IMO… IBU calculations are bs… just some numbers thrown in in order to place some sort of unknown value on bitterness. Its like asking how hot is hot, or asking someone else if you would like what they like. Most of the recipe calculators assign far too low of a bitterness value imo. Then there is different types of bitterness calc’s, Rager, Tinseth, etc. etc. etc.
Pinnah, just Do It and tell us what You thought of it and what if anything you would do differently next time. Thats how I roll from now on… I’m the one thats gonna drink it. ;D
IBU calculations for most homebrewers are just an indication of how bitter a beer may be in relation to other beers that you’ve brewed. I agree that whatever you calculate as your IBU’s is probably not what you’re going to get if you send it to a lab to be analyzed.
But as long as you keep your methodology for calculating the IBU’s consistent you can use those numbers as an indication of how much bitterness a particular beer may have when you brew it on your system.
Yep it is all empirical and this is what pro brewers understand. Not bitter enough? More hops next time.
If someone were willing to make a lot of wort and get IBUs measured on them, both Tinseth and Rager models can be refit to that data (rather than Tinseth’s or Rager’s data).
We do both First Wort hops and “0” Min hops at flame out. We can only offer our observations as we don’t spend the money to have our beer or our hops analyzed.
First wort hops seem to bring hop flavor into the beer even though it is later boiled. We often hear (read) that you can’t taste bittering hops. We feel you can definately taste First worted hops. We have never precieved an aroma from First Worted hops. Since we don’t have analysis done we accept the commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU’s.
“0” Minuit or Flame Out hops. This is easy to do. We don’t worry about rushing to the chiller as long as we stay 160*F+ and keep it covered, there is little risk of contamination. In fact the Austrailian Brew In A Bag folks never chill. The just put it in a covered container and let it sit overnight. We add our flame out hops to the hop bag and let them steep for 20 min. We definatly can get the Aroma effects, second, some of the hop oils stay on your lips for a few seconds after a drink. The taste is great and the preception of breathing in the hop is a very nice addition. Again since we don’t analyze, we just assume no addition to IBU.
Summary 1st wort does add flavor, no aroma, and 10% boost to bittering IBU. Flame out adds a very interesting flavor and aroma effect. We assume no additional IBU.
Preston
Even though my experiment found that actual IBUs were increased by10% by FWH, I still calculate them as adding the same amount of bitterness as a 20 min. addition because that’s how I perceive them.
“commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU’s”
10% boost over what? Zero or 60 minute addition?
I just checked what ProMash does with an addition at FWH and compared it to 60 minute and the value for FWH was about 10% less. I have it set to whatever the default calculation is.
Good point, I would agree with that and its taken me this long to figure that out. I remember posting recipes and others thinking I wasn’t adding enough hops or conversely that I was making a hop bomb… on their systems that may very well have been true. Its also why I don’t post recipes often… :D I’ve tried other people’s recipes too, some work, some don’t.
I’ve pondered hopstanding and it’s perceived effects many times. I think a flameout addition will dissolve the essential oils (lupulin) from the glands of the hops and lend a very aromatic wort. However after every minute of soaking time I think there is loss of some aromatics. The aromatic compounds slowly volatilize over time as they soak in the near boiling wort. How much? That’s the question I keep asking myself. I think there’s a window of opportunity to capture the very fresh aromatics in the wort. 5min, 10 min, 30 min?
Hops for thought. :)
The essential oils can combine to form the flavor compounds. The essential oils are in the beer if you dry hop. I have aded hops at 180F to keep some in the beer, or let it combine.
Flash points for the essential oils.
Caryophyllene=200F
Humulene=110F
Myrcene=103F
Farnesene=79F
I think you see which aroma oils ones are had by dry hopping.