Hopstand & Dry Hop IPA

[erockrph]

I just got this into the fermenter. Crazy amount of hops - looking forward to how this turns out. I used a 30 minute addition to estimate the utilization from the 90 minute hop stand. Not that it matters much at 475 IBU…

Title: Hopstand IPA

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 3.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.058
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)
No Chill: 30 minute extended hop boil time

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.066
IBU (tinseth): 475.51
SRM (morey): 7.62

FERMENTABLES:
6.5 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (72.2%)
2 lb - German - Munich Light (22.2%)
8 oz - American - Victory (5.6%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Citra, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 14.8, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 104.49
2 oz - Apollo, Type: Pellet, AA: 18, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 139.79
2 oz - Meridian, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.7, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 52.03
2 oz - Motueka, Type: Pellet, AA: 7.2, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 55.92
2.5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 123.29
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 12, Use: Hopback for 0 min at  °F
1.5 oz - Citra, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 14.8, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
2 oz - Meridian, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.7, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
2 oz - Motueka, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 7.2, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
1 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

MASH GUIDELINES:

1. Infusion, Temp: 153 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 17 qt, Sacc Rest

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

NOTES:
90 minute hop stand

(Note: Efficiency calculation dropped to 70 to account for wort lost to hops.)

“Hopback” Amarillo is actually steeped in French Press with priming sugar immediately prior to bottling.

Generated by Brewer’s Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

I love to push the late hop boundaries. Can’t wait to see your tasting notes on this beast ! All due respect to Green Flash, it looks like a “palate wrecker”.

[fmader]

Very nice!

I see you’re using meridian. I have a pound of it and have yet to use it in anything. I rarely see people include it in any recipes. Do you have any tasting notes on it? And/or are you a fan?

[three]

Once again…

WOWZA!

[gsrepine (repo)]

Where/how are you getting hop stand ibus equal to 30 minutes in the boil? This is probably around 25% less ibus than if you dropped them in the boil for 90 minutes. This might be a good one to get measured in the lab.

[scottnu]

Very interesting recipe. I can’t wait to hear the tasting notes. Is the bitterness from the hops all “perceived” in the aroma or is there some true bitter flavor on the tongue?

Crazy and great idea!

[klickitat_jim]

Cost per pint?

[erockrph]

@fmader

Very nice!

I see you’re using meridian. I have a pound of it and have yet to use it in anything. I rarely see people include it in any recipes. Do you have any tasting notes on it? And/or are you a fan?

The single-hop Meridian beer I tasted last week still had a lot of priming sugar that hadn’t been eaten yet, so I don’t really have full tasting notes on it yet. Having said that, I got a whole lot of peach from Meridian. The nose was peach with some candy, and the flavor was peach/melon with some dank in the background. I’m not sure if the impressions of melon and candy were coming from the hops or from the residual sweetness.

I’m still holding judgement on Meridian as a whole, but my preliminary taste was pretty nice. I’m kind of going for a Sangria theme on this brew: Peach from Meridian, Orange from Apollo, Grapefruit/wine from Nelson, Lime from Motueka and Mango from Citra.

Where/how are you getting hop stand ibus equal to 30 minutes in the boil? This is probably around 25% less ibus than if you dropped them in the boil for 90 minutes. This might be a good one to get measured in the lab.

Mainly from experience on other brews. My rule of thumb with my system is to use 1/3 the length of the hop stand. It generally gets me in the ballpark with other brews that use a more sane amount of hops.

From everything I’ve heard, actual IBU’s in finished beer top off somewhere between 100 and 150. Needless to say I’m probably maxed out on this one. Really, beyond 80 IBU’s or so the calculated IBU’s are really only for “my IPA is bigger than yours” bragging rights. Still, depending on my yield, I may just have to send a sample off for evaluation.

@scottnu

Very interesting recipe. I can’t wait to hear the tasting notes. Is the bitterness from the hops all “perceived” in the aroma or is there some true bitter flavor on the tongue?

There have been several threads on the Northern brewer forums on hop-stand only brews. From what I’ve heard, the bitterness is up there, but tends to be smoother than if you used a true 60-minute boiled addition. Since isomerization happens above 185F, there is still quite a bit of IBU’s generated from a hot hop stand, just not as much as if you were at full boil. My experience say’s it’s roughly equal to an addition 1/3 the length of a hop stand, but others find that 1/2 the time is closer. I think a lot of that will depend on your individual system.

[gsrepine (repo)]

@erockrph

Where/how are you getting hop stand ibus equal to 30 minutes in the boil? This is probably around 25% less ibus than if you dropped them in the boil for 90 minutes. This might be a good one to get measured in the lab.

Mainly from experience on other brews. My rule of thumb with my system is to use 1/3 the length of the hop stand. It generally gets me in the ballpark with other brews that use a more sane amount of hops.

From everything I’ve heard, actual IBU’s in finished beer top off somewhere between 100 and 150. Needless to say I’m probably maxed out on this one. Really, beyond 80 IBU’s or so the calculated IBU’s are really only for “my IPA is bigger than yours” bragging rights. Still, depending on my yield, I may just have to send a sample off for evaluation.

Okay, that seems like it could work out. I just always felt it added 10- 20 ibus from my 0 min hops if not the whole hopstand(avg 30 min).  I always have a bunch of 15 minute and or later hops in there also, and usually well into or beyond that 100-150 possibility mark with zero ibus calculated from the 0 minute addition. It would be very interesting to see some actual lab results. After dry hopping you might not wanna part with one.

Think I have to pull the trigger on that fwh/O minute  ipa and see how it works. With only a smudge of extra bitterness available from fwh , the rest would have to come from the hopstand.

Not being able to recirculate seems like it could detract a good bit, as that agitation could really help isomerization.  Very curious to hear how bitter and tasty this turns out.

[hopfenundmalz]

How do you plan on keeping above 185F for 90 minutes? My system drops to just over that in 45 min. for 10 gallons during the winter in the garage. I can maintain temps with the fire, but haven’t done that yet.

[kylekohlmorgen]

@hopfenundmalz

How do you plan on keeping above 185F for 90 minutes? My system drops to just over that in 45 min. for 10 gallons during the winter in the garage. I can maintain temps with the fire, but haven’t done that yet.

I thought he was estimating a 90 min hopstand because of the no-chill method…

At least I was hoping this was the case. I’d love to see more info on how no-chill affects hoppy beers.

Seems like a great way to cut a lot of time out of my brewday, but before I go buying a no-chill container, I’d like to know how it affects break/clarity, hop utilization/aroma, etc.

[hopfenundmalz]

@kylekohlmorgen

@hopfenundmalz

How do you plan on keeping above 185F for 90 minutes? My system drops to just over that in 45 min. for 10 gallons during the winter in the garage. I can maintain temps with the fire, but haven’t done that yet.

I thought he was estimating a 90 min hopstand because of the no-chill method…

At least I was hoping this was the case. I’d love to see more info on how no-chill affects hoppy beers.

Seems like a great way to cut a lot of time out of my brewday, but before I go buying a no-chill container, I’d like to know how it affects break/clarity, hop utilization/aroma, etc.

I do a hop stand/whirlpool beer where I add all the hops at flame out. My point was that the temp drop would be well below 185F before the 90 min. was reached ,so no more isomrization at that point.

[erockrph]

Not doing a no-chill. I just use that feature on Brewer’s Friend to estimate my IBU’s from the hop stand.

As far as holding it above 185F the whole time - I’ve never measured can’t be sure that it stays that hot the whole time. But my kettle has a pretty thick cladding on the bottom and I leave it on the hot stove through the whole stand. I know I touched the kettle with the back of my arm after 90 minutes and it was super hot still. Plus, it’s not like once the temp hits 185F there’s a magic switch that shuts off all isomerization. There’s no doubt that it slows rapidly somewhere in the 175-190F range, but with over 3 ounces per gallon there will definitely be some additional contribution to iso-AA as it continues to cool.

As far as recirculation goes, I did stir every 5-10 minutes. Not the same, but hopefully will help with oil extraction. And in the end, that’s what this is really about more than IBU’s. I’m pretty confident that the IBU’s will be at or near the peak of the perception ceiling, I just want to cram as much hop flavor and aroma as I can in there.

As far as the cost goes. My guesstimate is that I’ll net somewhere around twenty 12-oz bottles once the dry hops drink up their share of beer. 9 lbs of grain plus a packet of dry yeast is probably close to 20 bucks. The hops probably come out to another 20 bucks since the Nelson wasn’t bought in bulk. So figure 2 bucks a bottle. Pricey for homebrew, but still a good deal compared to commercial beer.

[gsrepine (repo)]

@hopfenundmalz

I do a hop stand/whirlpool beer where I add all the hops at flame out. My point was that the temp drop would be well below 185F before the 90 min. was reached ,so no more isomrization at that point.

How is the bitterness in the beers when you do this? Do you have a guesstimate of ibus?

[hopfenundmalz]

@hopfenundmalz

I do a hop stand/whirlpool beer where I add all the hops at flame out. My point was that the temp drop would be well below 185F before the 90 min. was reached ,so no more isomrization at that point.

How is the bitterness in the beers when you do this? Do you have a guesstimate of ibus?

The beer is Cream Ale, and it is a knockoff of Pelican Pubs Kiwanda Cream Ale, and all of the hops go in after flame out. They claim 25 IBUs.

For 10 gallons of a 1.050 beer, I have estimated 13% extraction. I you look at the data from Tinseth, this is roughly an 18 minute addition, I think I have used 15 minutes as the whirlpool with a March pump is not as vigorous as at a commercial brewery. The hops I have used are Mt Hood at 4.8% and 8 Oz for 10 gallons, and it is estimated to be about 25 IBU. I like the results.

I have thought of doing an ultimate late addition IPA using high AA hops at flameout. This might be an ispiration.

[gsrepine (repo)]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it works well.  No pump for me, I think I’ll try it in a pale ale first and go from there.

[scottnu]

@erockrph

@scottnu

Very interesting recipe. I can’t wait to hear the tasting notes. Is the bitterness from the hops all “perceived” in the aroma or is there some true bitter flavor on the tongue?

There have been several threads on the Northern brewer forums on hop-stand only brews. From what I’ve heard, the bitterness is up there, but tends to be smoother than if you used a true 60-minute boiled addition. Since isomerization happens above 185F, there is still quite a bit of IBU’s generated from a hot hop stand, just not as much as if you were at full boil. My experience say’s it’s roughly equal to an addition 1/3 the length of a hop stand, but others find that 1/2 the time is closer. I think a lot of that will depend on your individual system.

Thanks for the information. I am interested in smoothing out the bitterness of the bittering charge. I have heard suggestions that first wort hopping has a similar effect. It seems a little counterintuitive that FWHing and a post boil hop stand would have similar outcomes considering the very different mechanics at play.

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don’t know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

[hopfenundmalz]

@scottnu

@erockrph

@scottnu

Very interesting recipe. I can’t wait to hear the tasting notes. Is the bitterness from the hops all “perceived” in the aroma or is there some true bitter flavor on the tongue?

There have been several threads on the Northern brewer forums on hop-stand only brews. From what I’ve heard, the bitterness is up there, but tends to be smoother than if you used a true 60-minute boiled addition. Since isomerization happens above 185F, there is still quite a bit of IBU’s generated from a hot hop stand, just not as much as if you were at full boil. My experience say’s it’s roughly equal to an addition 1/3 the length of a hop stand, but others find that 1/2 the time is closer. I think a lot of that will depend on your individual system.

Read Mitch Steele’s NHC presentation this year. “Enjoy by IPA” has only FWH, whirlpool, and dry hops.
Thanks for the information. I am interested in smoothing out the bitterness of the bittering charge. I have heard suggestions that first wort hopping has a similar effect. It seems a little counterintuitive that FWHing and a post boil hop stand would have similar outcomes considering the very different mechanics at play.

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don’t know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

[denny]

@scottnu

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don’t know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

I did some experimenting with mash hopping.  My conclusion was that I got as much out of mash hopping as I would if I’d thrown the hops away.

[klickitat_jim]

@denny

@scottnu

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don’t know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

I did some experimenting with mash hopping.  My conclusion was that I got as much out of mash hopping as I would if I’d thrown the hops away.

I can totally see that scientific taste test in Denny’s kitchen.  "Ok guys, now this is from the batch where I just threw the hops away. What do you think? "