Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing

[pmorrissette (Phil_M)]

Best way to drink Bitburger I’ve found is from a fresh one of those 5-liter party kegs.

Cans are next best, but haven’t seen them around here in years. For some reason it always seems to suck in bottles.

[system]

I try and avoid European bottles like the plague.

Very familiar with VDK/Dia, we have a few documents on it in our library, along with the brewing texts.

Oxygen ingress though the beer caps/seal is quite large. Couple that with a container being shipped across the ocean at who knows what temps, stored at a distributor at who knows what temps or for how long, and then making its way to you local liquor store to sit at who knows what temps and for how long… You have beer with off flavors.

Fresh in cans or mini-keg its sublime.

[bjanat]

One local brewer who recently installed a canning line told me the normal oxygen ingress in bottles is 2ppb per day.

[brewinhard]

@bjanat

One local brewer who recently installed a canning line told me the normal oxygen ingress in bottles is 2ppb per day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting. That’s why I switched to kegging years ago.

[hopfenundmalz]

@bjanat

One local brewer who recently installed a canning line told me the normal oxygen ingress in bottles is 2ppb per day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have read that better cap materials are at 1ppb/day. That will not last forever.

Cans have more packaged O2, but very very little ingress.

[zwiller]

@zwiller

My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn’t really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add’l O2 pickup.  Wouldn’t this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I’d hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will… But don’t take this the wrong way…

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like… stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it… Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn’t be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn’t call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds… Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I’d like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results.

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh…  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What’s the deal?  Curious…

[system]

@zwiller

@zwiller

My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn’t really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add’l O2 pickup.  Wouldn’t this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I’d hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will… But don’t take this the wrong way…

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like… stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it… Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn’t be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn’t call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds… Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I’d like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results.

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh…  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What’s the deal?  Curious…

Yea, 3 kids under 8(all 3 in sports of some kind), full time job and a full time life!

I don’t know how much copper you have, most people its just a chiller. The SMB dosage covers those so while its not perfect, I would certainly not shy away if its just that.

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

Also, zwiller - based on the batches I did with Brewtan I feel like the claims about it preventing copper related oxidation have merit, and I use a copper IC. Changing no other variables except for adding the Brewtan made noticeable improvement in my beers. My plan is currently to use the yeast scavenging method on water (wasn’t a huge fan of preboiling), use SMB and Brewtan in strike and go with it. Probably eventually spund. Can’t wait to tap my first batch using this method.

[beersk]

@zwiller

@zwiller

My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn’t really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add’l O2 pickup.  Wouldn’t this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I’d hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will… But don’t take this the wrong way…

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like… stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it… Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn’t be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn’t call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds… Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I’d like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results.

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh…  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What’s the deal?  Curious…

Oh yeah! I’ve been drinking Becks lately, it’s about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap. First sip was like, hey, that’s surprisingly good. I can get it in 4 packs of pint cans for 5 bucks!
I gotta get me one of those Bittburger mini kegs.

Yeah, I’d think that, even with copper in your system, you can brew low O2 and make improvements. I noticed improvements for sure. I have both a stainless and copper chiller now and have been using both. The stainless chiller is only 3/8" tubing whereas the copper is 1/2" tubing. Chilling times are a bit different between the two…

[hopfenundmalz]

@beersk

@zwiller

@zwiller

My personal testing with ferments on trub and without did not yield anything significant so I am of the belief it doesn’t really matter but I typically brew things that could hide the negative impacts if there are.  I have absolutely no issues with clarity.  I am kinda wondering how folks can remove course break without add’l O2 pickup.  Wouldn’t this be the worst place to fool around if your goal was LO?  I’d hate to think of brewer ruining his attempt at LO when simply trying to racking off coarse break when his process was otherwise sound.  IIRC racking after cooling is more forgiving and probably the best place to do it IF you are and safest place of all to be careless.  I tend to think removing break is farther down on the list of important LO considerations but surely once you get the other aspects of the process dialed in you can investigate.

I hate to be this guy, but I will… But don’t take this the wrong way…

I have 1000 batches of beer under my belt, only 250 of those are low oxygen. My prior 750 batches there was little I could do short of having an actual infection to screw them up. However on the flip side of that coin, there was little I could do to improve them as well. Things I use to do before like… stirring the mash, splashing, fermenting until gravity, simple keg purges, mash temp, you name it… Nothing really changed the beer. That couldn’t be farther from the truth now, minor things like a non vigorous fermentation, or popping a lid on the keg, has results of changing the beer flavor.
Things like trub separation made ZERO difference before I went to low oxygen, I wouldn’t call them paramount to the whole low oxygen scheme but they matter. I totally agree with you though to chase the low hanging fruit first, trub separation is maybe 2-3% of the overall. Mitigating the major ingress points on hot and cold side are going skyrocket a person leaps and bounds… Call trub separation an advanced topic for  a later date.

Thanks for that.  No offense at all (never took any of your comments that way BTW).  You got me beat by 500 by estimate.  Have any kids?  ;D  This all makes sense as I am at this plateau now where pretty much nothing results in much change.  Looking forward to changing that!  Care to to offer % as to copper chiller?  Right now, I am tending to shy away from trying LO at all due to copper.  I’d like to believe doing the basics should at least get me some results.

I too prefer the party keg Bitt.  Wow, it has been awhile tho.  Anxious to try Becks too now that is being made here.  Gotta be pretty fresh…  You guys that have made it to the Motherland.  I thought Bitt/Becks was considered poor quality/americanized stuff.  Even saw comments that Germans say only bums drink it?  What’s the deal?  Curious…

Oh yeah! I’ve been drinking Becks lately, it’s about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap. First sip was like, hey, that’s surprisingly good. I can get it in 4 packs of pint cans for 5 bucks!
I gotta get me one of those Bittburger mini kegs.

Yeah, I’d think that, even with copper in your system, you can brew low O2 and make improvements. I noticed improvements for sure. I have both a stainless and copper chiller now and have been using both. The stainless chiller is only 3/8" tubing whereas the copper is 1/2" tubing. Chilling times are a bit different between the two…

How much? Now I have a 3/8" SS and 1/2" copper, both 50 ft. I have not used the SS yet. The copper may be used as a prechiller.

[wobdee]

What temp are you lagering/spunding at?

[system]

@wobdee

What temp are you lagering/spunding at?

45-48F fermentation to spund, spund to final gravity

30 lagering

[wobdee]

@wobdee

What temp are you lagering/spunding at?

45-48F fermentation to spund, spund to final gravity

30 lagering

OK, I was confused with this after reading your blog. I thought maybe you were combining the spunding/lagering at 32-34. So spunding another week or so at 45-48 to final gravity then remove spund valve and drop to lagering temps?

[scrapiron]

I don’t know how much copper you have, most people its just a chiller. The SMB dosage covers those so while its not perfect, I would certainly not shy away if its just that.

[/quote]
    Am I to understand that the SMB dose helps to cover the copper chiller affects. I have changed my MT manifold from copper to a simple SS 90* elbow for return under mash surface. I have reduced the copper chiller time to 10 mins before end of boil. Thoughts?

[system]

@wobdee

@wobdee

What temp are you lagering/spunding at?

45-48F fermentation to spund, spund to final gravity

30 lagering

OK, I was confused with this after reading your blog. I thought maybe you were combining the spunding/lagering at 32-34. So spunding another week or so at 45-48 to final gravity then remove spund valve and drop to lagering temps?

No the spund has to be done at fermentation temps.  Yup remove and lager.

[system]

I don’t know how much copper you have, most people its just a chiller. The SMB dosage covers those so while its not perfect, I would certainly not shy away if its just that.

Am I to understand that the SMB dose helps to cover the copper chiller affects. I have changed my MT manifold from copper to a simple SS 90* elbow for return under mash surface. I have reduced the copper chiller time to 10 mins before end of boil. Thoughts?

[/quote]

Yup, I would use the standard dose rates appropriate to your system.

[beersk]

@hopfenundmalz

How much? Now I have a 3/8" SS and 1/2" copper, both 50 ft. I have not used the SS yet. The copper may be used as a prechiller.

It might add 10-15 minutes. Long enough for you to notice, I’d say. Whether it’s a big deal or not…probably not. I thought about doing a prechiller too, that might help cool faster. Stick the prechiller in ice water, then use that ice water to recirculate once you’re down far enough to switch to the pump. I’d need to get another hose, which isn’t a big deal.

[narcout]

Regarding SMB, does the amount of additional residual sulfur compounds in the finished beer depend on how much of the SMB is oxidized during hot or cold side processes?

[bjanat]

Btw, here is a great interview with Bryan about this, starts at the 32nd minute: https://itunes.apple.com/no/podcast/fermentation-nation/id887065446?mt=2&i=377688846

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

Need to buy the sulfite test strips. Having recently brewed an ale at a reasonable attempt at lodo brewing, I went with 50ppm meta as not to cause any yeast issues, but my curiosity has me wanting to know about residual sulfur. I obviously want to tighten up my system within reason, but I want to add as little of anything as possible to get the good result. Can’t wait to brew a lager soon.