Isnt science all about discovering truth and accepting it over the dogma of the masses? No offense Dmtaylor, but id go with what Wyeast says over what millions of peoole have been taught. But I reserve the right to change my mind if the masses show up with torches and pitchforks.
This is the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Well done sir
Can you explain why you can’t drink most lagers?
+1. Way too many different styles of lagers (or ales) to generalize. I get that from some of my family directed at ales in general, too. It’s fun to serve them one where they have to eat their words and admit they really like it.
I can, it’s just that in general, I don’t like the taste of most lagers. Although I do like some commercial lagers like Samuel Smith Organic Lager.
There is a world of lagers that most don’t know. Explore lagers more. There are some truly great ones in Germany that either don’t make the trip over, or suffer from the travel.
Sort of like someone saying I don’t like beer. They haven’t found the one they like.
Okay… so… Wyeast is the only friggin webpage on the planet that says lager yeast and ale yeast are the same species. I Googled and Googled and couldn’t find one single news article or Wiki-anything telling me that the two species had been combined. Go ahead and look, and let me know if you can find an independent source of the information that has two of its own legs to stand on. Ready, set, go!
I see torches and pitchforks… screw Wyeast! I think they are totally different!
I’ve brewed with both enough now and think you can use recipes interchangeably with either type, but lager yeast results in brews that simply taste different than ale yeast. Could they be confused for each other at times? Yes. Perhaps.
I recall an article that lager yeast share ancient dna found in yeast trapped in prehistoric amber.
+1 - I’ve heard this comment before from craft beer drinkers “I don’t like lagers” and it means they just haven’t really become familiar with lagers from around the world. There are so many great lager beers out there. Start with bocks, for instance.
Problems is, ales are so easy to brew and turn around and that is what you find most American craft breweries focusing on.
As far as differences go, lager yeasts can ferment some sugars ale yeast can’t. They leave behind a much slimmer ester profile so are much, much cleaner tasting and lend a particular smoothness and refinement that ale yeasts can’t achieve - although some, such as WY1007, can get very close to.
It’s not like that. I’d just prefer to substantiate with a scientific document is all. If Wyeast is correct, then this information would likely be freely and independently available elsewhere on the internet someplace – no? I would love to know the truth, that’s all I want to know. If it really is all the same species, this does make sense to me, even if it goes against everything that everyone’s been taught. The differences are slight to where I can agree that they might truly be the same species. Without substantiation, I just don’t know it in my own mind to be fact yet. No torches or pitchforks required.
I recall an article from a while back that isolated the lager strain as being brought to Germany on fruit from South America when ships started sailing over the Atlantic. I swear to God that is my recollection - but that could have been a weird dream I had, too. That was the sacc bayanus origin according to the article/dream… Does anyone remember/did anyone dream something similar?
Not saying it is right, but found that article -
http://www.newsytype.com/10483-lager-yeast/
So, I wasn’t dreaming it, at least initially. :o
I know, I was flipping you a little poo. Its all good. I’m not a negative mind reader, or try not to be anyway.
I remember as a kid being told this top fermentation bottom fermentation thing. I took it as fact. It may still be, but after actually doing it a while, I’m less than convinced. Its obvious that there are different yeast that throw different flavors, prefer different temps, attenuate differently, etc. I just question that these differences represent a different species. Different strain? Sure! In my opinion Belgian deserves its own species if that’s the case.
I’ve yet to read any compelling evidence that lager yeast does its thing in the deep end while ale does it at the top. More evidence than its what everyone was taught, or its what looks like is happening by the naked eye.
Maybe someone should send an email to Wyeast and ask them to defend their claim?
Done. We’ll see.
So Wyeast isn’t the only one - and it’s not recent news either. Chris White talks about it in a BYO post from 1998.
http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/62-7-fascinating-facts-about-yeast
2nd paragraph of section 1.
Interestingly, I’ve found more recent NIH papers that refer to lager yeast as a hybrid of S. cerevisiae and S. bayanus with the name S. pastorianus.
Cited within: Martini A. V., Martini A. In: The Yeasts, a Taxonomic Study: Saccharomyces Myen ex Reessm. Kurtzman C. P., Fell J. W., editors. Amsterdam: Elsevier; 1998. pp. 358–371. Chapter 44
This was presented in Seattle via Skype at the BJCP reception.
The South American Yeast could have come over on wood timbers, food, plants.
Have you tried bock, maibock, dopplebock, dunkel, maerzen, etc.? Many people think of yellow fizzy beer when they think of lagers and that’s no more accurate than thinking all ales are like an IPA.
That used to be the thinking. Maybe they haven’t updated their website.
Much has been learned since 1998. What Chris White is talking about is the “old info” I mentioned Wyeast may still have on their site.