Martin B. is the man!

[wort-h.o.g]

@rabeb25

@wort-h.o.g

The problem Mark is that while you are correct on difference in PH at mash temps vs room temp-all the information home brewers have as reference to mah PH and its impact on the beer is relative to mash PH at room temps. Kai’s article is just one example, and this forum has more references than you can count.

All of my references point to optimum mash pH being between 5.2 and 5.3 at mash temperature.

Well this post was all about Brunwater… Brunwater is made to read with a room temp sample. That sample is correlated to mash temp. If Brunwater says 5.3 mash pH, its expects you to read 5.3 on your cooled sample and it does the guess work(pH temp shifts) for you.  I think you are thinking if Brunwater reads 5.3 at mash you need to read 5.6 at room, right?

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you on pH values.

yep don’t disagree at all the PH differs from mash temp to room temp. all i can say is that references made to “optimal PH for mash” for given style of beer is referencing mash PH at room temp (as far as I can tell in everything i’ve read).

[narcout]

One thing I’ve noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru’n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

[wort-h.o.g]

@narcout

One thing I’ve noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru’n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

I know through experience of others , and then my own certain styles just taste better to me mashed at different PH. I like a wit or krystalweizen or fruit beer around 5.2. IPA or pale ale at 5.4, and 30+SRM dark beer at 5.5-5.6.

[erockrph]

@wort-h.o.g

@narcout

One thing I’ve noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru’n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

I know through experience of others , and then my own certain styles just taste better to me mashed at different PH. I like a wit or krystalweizen or fruit beer around 5.2. IPA or pale ale at 5.4, and 30+SRM dark beer at 5.5-5.6.

There’s definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you’re talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you’re setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you’re really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you’re shooting for. For example, you like your wit’s to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You’re choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

[wort-h.o.g]

@erockrph

@wort-h.o.g

@narcout

One thing I’ve noticed from this forum (and the Northern Brewer forum) is that targeting a lower mash pH seems to be the trend these days.

My guess would be this has something to do with the rising popularity of Bru’n Water, which states the recommended mash pH range is 5.3 to 5.5 (as measured at room temperature).

I know through experience of others , and then my own certain styles just taste better to me mashed at different PH. I like a wit or krystalweizen or fruit beer around 5.2. IPA or pale ale at 5.4, and 30+SRM dark beer at 5.5-5.6.

There’s definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you’re talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you’re setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you’re really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you’re shooting for. For example, you like your wit’s to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You’re choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

completely agree with what you point out. i just dont typically do any other PH adjustments outside of the mash and sparge water. if i target mash at 5.4 then i boil at 5.4 vs having a mash PH of 5.3 and then adjusting in the kettle to 5.4. have i had to do post mash adjustments…yes, but just less monkeying around if I don’t have to.

[system]

@rabeb25

Well this post was all about Brunwater… Brunwater is made to read with a room temp sample. That sample is correlated to mash temp. If Brunwater says 5.3 mash pH, its expects you to read 5.3 on your cooled sample because it does/did the guess work(pH temp shifts) for you.  I think you are thinking if Brunwater reads 5.3 at mash you need to read 5.6 at room, right?

Bru’n Water is not reading anything.  Bru’n Water is telling me how much adjustment I need to make to my water supply based on the grist in order to hit a specific room temperature pH.  The sample was read at room temperature.

I have always targeted a pH of 5.5 to 5.6 at room temperature because I am targeting a mash temp pH of approximately 5.2 to 5.3.  Targeting a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.3 at room temperature places the mash pH at mash temperature at the bottom end or below that at which limit dextrinase is most effective, and far below that at which alpha-amylase and beta amylase are most effective.  My standard single-infusion mash temperature is 148F, which is just below the temperature at which limit dextrinase is starting to be denatured.

Limit dextrinase Optimum pH 5.1 Optimum Temp ~57°C Denatured 65°C
Beta-Amylase Optimum pH 5.4-5.6 Optimum Temp ~62°C Denatured 68°C
Alfa-Amylase Optimum pH 5.6-5.8 Optimum Temp ~72°C Denatured 80°C

[/quote]

Also in looking at your sample picture, you have WAY to much grain in that sample. You should really have a nice clear (free of particles) sample.

[/quote]

What you are seeing is the top of the tumbler where grain managed to sneak over the lip.  The sample was for the most part was clear of grain particles where the actual sensor was submerged.  The sample was taken immediately after mash-in, not after conversion was partially or fully complete and the wort was for the most part clear of starch.  I am testing for the pH at which enzymatic hydrolysis is occurring.

[system]

@erockrph

There’s definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

+1

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you’re talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you’re setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you’re really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you’re shooting for. For example, you like your wit’s to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You’re choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

This information is for the most part on the money.  What lot of brewers on this forum are failing to take into account is that one of the first things that a yeast culture does after pitching is lower the pH to below 4.5, sometimes even lower than 4.0.  How far a yeast culture lowers the pH of the medium is species and strain dependent.  This phenomenon is part of a yeast culture’s defense mechanisms (which is one of the reasons why replacing the green beer in a yeast crop with boiled tap water is not a good idea).  Most of us have been told or have read that pathogens do not grow in beer.  The science behind this claim is that the growth of pathogens like Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that causes boutilism) is inhibited below 4.6 pH.

[wort-h.o.g]

@erockrph

There’s definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

+1

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you’re talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you’re setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you’re really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you’re shooting for. For example, you like your wit’s to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You’re choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

This information is for the most part is on the money.  What lot of brewers on this are failing to take into account is that one of the first things that a yeast culture does after pitching is lower the pH to below 4.5, sometimes even lower than 4.0.  How far a yeast culture lowers the pH of the medium is species and strain dependent.  This phenomenon is part of a yeast culture’s defense mechanisms (which is one of the reasons why replacing the green beer in a yeast crop with boiled tap water is not a good idea).
Most of us have been told or have read that pathogens do not grow in beer.  The science behind this claim is that the growth of pathogens like Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that causes boutilism) is inhibited below 4.6 pH.

ok so im game. are you guys saying basically all wort (regardless of recipe/style) will have optimal conversion and therefor considered an optimal mash at rrom temp PH 5.5-5.6? so just mash everything at 5.5-5.6?

then depending on the beer style, adjust PH in the kettle based upon the style or personal preference?

[system]

@wort-h.o.g

ok so im game. are you guys saying basically all wort (regardless of recipe/style) will have optimal conversion and therefor considered an optimal mash at rrom temp PH 5.5-5.6? so just mash everything at 5.5-5.6?

then depending on the beer style, adjust PH in the kettle based upon the style or personal preference?

Or better yet, adjust the pH of the finished product because the yeast culture has more control over then final product pH than you or I.

[hopfenundmalz]

@erockrph

There’s definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

+1

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you’re talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you’re setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you’re really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you’re shooting for. For example, you like your wit’s to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You’re choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

This information is for the most part on the money.  What lot of brewers on this are failing to take into account is that one of the first things that a yeast culture does after pitching is lower the pH to below 4.5, sometimes even lower than 4.0.  How far a yeast culture lowers the pH of the medium is species and strain dependent.  This phenomenon is part of a yeast culture’s defense mechanisms (which is one of the reasons why replacing the green beer in a yeast crop with boiled tap water is not a good idea).  Most of us have been told or have read that pathogens do not grow in beer.  The science behind this claim is that the growth of pathogens like Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that causes boutilism) is inhibited below 4.6 pH.

And why pickled foods are safe to eat, low pH.

[system]

@rabeb25

Well this post was all about Brunwater… Brunwater is made to read with a room temp sample. That sample is correlated to mash temp. If Brunwater says 5.3 mash pH, its expects you to read 5.3 on your cooled sample because it does/did the guess work(pH temp shifts) for you.  I think you are thinking if Brunwater reads 5.3 at mash you need to read 5.6 at room, right?

Bru’n Water is not reading anything.  Bru’n Water is telling me how much adjustment I need to make to my water supply based on the grist in order to hit a specific room temperature pH.  The sample was read at room temperature.

I have always targeted a pH of 5.5 to 5.6 at room temperature because I am targeting a mash temp pH of approximately 5.2 to 5.3.  Targeting a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.3 at room temperature places the mash pH at mash temperature at the bottom end or below that at which limit dextrinase is most effective, and far below that at which alpha-amylase and beta amylase are most effective.  My standard single-infusion mash temperature is 148F, which is just below the temperature at which limit dextrinase is starting to be denatured.

Limit dextrinase Optimum pH 5.1 Optimum Temp ~57°C Denatured 65°C
Beta-Amylase Optimum pH 5.4-5.6 Optimum Temp ~62°C Denatured 68°C
Alfa-Amylase Optimum pH 5.6-5.8 Optimum Temp ~72°C Denatured 80°C

Also in looking at your sample picture, you have WAY to much grain in that sample. You should really have a nice clear (free of particles) sample.

[/quote]

What you are seeing is the top of the tumbler where grain managed to sneak over the lip.  The sample was for the most part was clear of grain particles where the actual sensor was submerged.  The sample was taken immediately after mash-in, not after conversion was partially or fully complete and the wort was for the most part clear of starch.  I am testing for the pH at which enzymatic hydrolysis is occurring.

[/quote]

• shakes head, shrugs shoulders* Ok, and walks away

[system]

@rabeb25

• shakes head, shrugs shoulders* Ok, and walks away

What is it that I am not being clear enough about?

[JT]

@wort-h.o.g

@erockrph

There’s definitely several things going on here. The first is the pH of the mash itself and how it relates to conversion. From what I understand, pH in the higher end of that range (~5.6 measured at room temp) leads to the best conversion in the mash. Secondly, there is the consideration that must be taken to keep the pH of the sparge from rising too high in order to minimize tannin extraction.

+1

Finally, there is the pH of the finished beer itself and how it relates to flavor. The numbers you’re talking about really have more to do with this than the pH of the mash itself. Even though you’re setting a specific mash pH for these beers, what you’re really doing is targeting a final pH to get the flavor profile you’re shooting for. For example, you like your wit’s to finish with a lower pH than your dark beers. You’re choosing to adjust your mash pH, which will result in a lower kettle pH, and a lower pH after fermentation. You could just as easily take a measurement of your finished beer and adjust the pH at that point, even if your mash pH was actually 5.6 instead of the 5.2 you normally shoot for.

This information is for the most part is on the money.  What lot of brewers on this are failing to take into account is that one of the first things that a yeast culture does after pitching is lower the pH to below 4.5, sometimes even lower than 4.0.  How far a yeast culture lowers the pH of the medium is species and strain dependent.  This phenomenon is part of a yeast culture’s defense mechanisms (which is one of the reasons why replacing the green beer in a yeast crop with boiled tap water is not a good idea).
Most of us have been told or have read that pathogens do not grow in beer.  The science behind this claim is that the growth of pathogens like Clostridium botulinum (the bacterium that causes boutilism) is inhibited below 4.6 pH.

ok so im game. are you guys saying basically all wort (regardless of recipe/style) will have optimal conversion and therefor considered an optimal mash at rrom temp PH 5.5-5.6? so just mash everything at 5.5-5.6?

then depending on the beer style, adjust PH in the kettle based upon the style or personal preference?

The boil itself lowers the pH as well IME, so adjusting in the kettle may be tricky?

[erockrph]

@wort-h.o.g

ok so im game. are you guys saying basically all wort (regardless of recipe/style) will have optimal conversion and therefor considered an optimal mash at rrom temp PH 5.5-5.6? so just mash everything at 5.5-5.6?

then depending on the beer style, adjust PH in the kettle based upon the style or personal preference?

Or better yet, adjust the pH of the finished product because the yeast culture has more control over then final product pH than you or I.

If I were a professional brewer, I would definitely be measuring the pH on all my finished beers and adjusting as necessary. But you can certainly ballpark it in the mash, and I prefer to do that for simplicity’s sake.

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

I tip my hat to anyone who wants to adjust their finished pH, but I choose to follow Bru’nwater to the letter and love the results. There’s the real chance of making a good beer less so by tinkering with the final pH. I’m a big believer in less is more when it comes to water, but obviously pH is controlled to the very end by some with good results.

[JT]

Yeah I’m still in the adjust mash pH (read at room temp) for taste camp, not for better conversion.  I assume that if I had a conversion issue the starches would show up as astringency in the final product, which would lead to me performing an iodine test for conversion during subsequent mashings. 
…
Is mashings a word?

[69franx]

It is now

[wort-h.o.g]

I’m not inclined or likely skilled enough at beer PH tinkering. Seems like to much and more risk of ruining it.

[wort-h.o.g]

Is it just me or is anyone else managing mash PH by room temp, and it varies by recipe? Perhaps I’m just wasting time and energy and a consistent mash PH of 5.5-5.6 Room temp is the way to go??? If I wanted a more acidic wort In the kettle I’d just adjust down- and that would carry through with the hops and yeast PH drop that happens…not feeling like there’s much in responses suggesting a best practice here.

[system]

@wort-h.o.g

Is it just me or is anyone else managing mash PH by room temp, and it varies by recipe? Perhaps I’m just wasting time and energy and a consistent mash PH of 5.5-5.6 Room temp is the way to go??? If I wanted a more acidic wort In the kettle I’d just adjust down- and that would carry through with the hops and yeast PH drop that happens…not feeling like there’s much in responses suggesting a best practice here.

It’s an area ripe for experimentation.