My experience is that if PU’s pH was a room-temp measurement, the degree of proteolysis of the wort would result in a thin bodied beer. I am far more likely to use the pH regime that Bryan mentioned (5.4 mash and 5.1 knockout) for pale beers (especially with high Pils content) since that slightly elevated mashing and boil pH favors good conversion of SMM to DMS. German breweries often employ a late saurergut addition to the boil to bring the knockout pH down to that very modest 5.1 pH.
Honestly would beta even work? Because alpha certainly isn’t. Everything I can find is that it’s way out of range. I realize it’s not usually a hard number on these ranges, but man. If you don’t have beta and alpha amylase you don’t have conversion. Couple that with 3 intense decoctions and you would be super low.
I would be more inclined to believe they didn’t do any pH modification and when they hit the boil kettle it’s around 5.2. Especially if the water itself is low in starting ph.
There’s just way to many red flags here. Sounds like something was missed, misquoted, misinterpreted, etc. There’s a language barrier, professional to homebrew barrier, and no compete clauses in work here. It happens.
It used to be that tangents in threads brought about good discussion. I think your tangent was a good one. It’s a thinker. I personally like thinking about brewing.
I don’t think that any one is calling Annie a liar, or saying she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, or questioning her credentials.
In this case you posted a digression from the OP that doesn’t make sense to me. I was just trying to rectify what I know with what you posted? Should we not talk about it?
So then, which reading is the correct one? Room temp or mash temp?
Even professionals have issues with this. So good luck.
Room temp is an effective way to standardize measurements. 5.4 at room temp for me is 5.4 at room temp for you.
Temperature makes it a moving target, especially when we say “mash temp”, which could mean any value you mash at. 5.4 at mash temp may be different for both of us if we mash at different temperatures.
There are of course many breweries using inline probes and transmitters who standardize their internal targets measured “at temperature”. Neither way is right or wrong but you have to have the info to understand the effect.
No, by all means I want the conversation to continue. The more we debate with the knowledge we have based on our experiences and those of others is what I believe makes me a better brewer or at least points me in that direction.
Agreed!
Let us not besmirch Annie, but rather try and understand where the miscommunication here is.
I don’t think anyone was besmirching her. Just trying to figure out what she meant (and if I had listened to the questions at the end, I would have known), and by extension what the brewmaster meant.
They talk up the water a lot as part of their marketing, but there’s no way they’re getting down that low without acidulated malt and decoctions. Put me in the camp that believes what they actually end up with is a room temperature pH of 5 - 5.1 at the end of the boil, corresponding to the lower range at knockout temp. Of course, if someone here wants to try acidifying the mash to 4.7, I’d love to hear the results.
I didn’t think so either but got the distinct feeling that some people thought we were. I’m in the same boat as you. Didn’t make sense to me and what I know so I was looking for the missing link.
Right. Agree here on all points.
Denny, would you be willing to reach out to Annie and get some clarification? All I’m interested in is if she does in fact mash at 4.7-4.9 for her Czech Pilz AND, if PU does as well?
Both are correct.
If you measure 5.2 pH at mash temperature, that is a correct pH reading. If you then measure the same sample at room temperature and get a pH of 5.4, that is also a correct pH reading. Things are naturally more acidic at higher temperatures.
To add on to this, the point where the distinction is important is when you quote a pH “optimum” for specific enzymatic action in the mash. If it’s quoted at room temp, there is no further info required. If quoted at “mash temp”, you need the specific temperature to go along with it.
What is “room temp”? 70*F? A hot brewhaus? Jimmy Carter’s house? (Put on a sweater)
Oddly enough… 25C. Not my rooms at least. A little hot for me.
SCIENCE!
No, I mean, really, there’s a scientific standard known as STP, Standard Temperature & Pressure, which is often but not always defined as 25C and 1 atmosphere. It’s better than no standard at all… unless you’re a dead brewer who wrote popular books in which case it’s closer to 65C and 1 atmosphere.
I think you’re thinking of SATP. Basically, there’s nothing standard about it 
But yes, the point is that it’s a reference point, nothing else. The calibration solution is also measured at that temperature, so that’s where you’ll get the most accurate results (even with ATC).
I’n’t that funny! Thanks for the clickable ref.
Cheers.
EBC Standard #18.17 defines the proper temperature for taking a “Wort pH” as being 20 degrees C. (68 degrees F.).
Ironically, there is no defined standard at all for the taking of a “Mash pH”, either from the EBC camp, or from the ASBC camp.
The lack of a defined “Mash pH” standard has led me to the opinion that the large scale industrial brewing types place far more concern upon controlling “Wort pH”, and it is post the mash wherein you have “Wort”. I infer from this that attaining a post boil “Wort pH” of 5.1-5.2 is far more important to these types than is worrying about “Mash pH”. If there was industry wide concern for “Mash pH” there would be a defined standard method for determining it, but there isn’t.