For stouts and porters I have always just smashed the darker grains. Was thinking of trying just adding them to the Vorlauf /recirculation portion of brew day to decrease astringency. Just wondering what everyone else does and why?
Have you had an astringenecy issue? Each way is a valid technique and yields different results. I have found that I generally prefer adding them to the mash and dealing with the effect on pH. Adding them late or cold steeping reduced the character so much that I didn’t care for it.
Astringency extraction in the mash/sparge is related to high pH, more than anything else, but would be more likely with lighter grists. If you’re just getting the normal “bite” from roasted malts, adding them late is one way to mitigate the problem. Another would be to reduce the amount you use. Either will accomplish your goal, but will also result in less character from them. When you use very dark malts for color only, Carafa type dehusked grains are much milder in flavor.
I prefer to add them to the mash. Adding them later, adding them in lesser amounts, cold steeping…etc all have different character. Unless I am looking to avoid any and all astringency and most of the roast character they go into the mash. A Black IPA or color adjustment might be different but a rare occasion. And for that there are very specific malts.
Instead, I rather mash at a higher ph, adjust my water for higher Chloride and even a bit more Sodium, all which seem to help smooth out and make the roast character more enjoyable. My last Robust Porter was mashed around 5.6 and the beer explodes with smooth, sweet creamy Milk Chocolate and Coffee notes. These things do make a difference, it’s just a matter of what exactly are you looking to do.
i used to just add them all together in the mash. Then I read Gordon Strong’s book, “Brewing Better Beer,” which discussed steeping separately. I tried it a few times and the color seemed to be off by quite a bit - I wasn’t happy with it. When my homebrew club got together for a collaboration beer (an Imperial Stout) going into a barrel, we all agreed to add the darker grains during the vorlauf as some have mentioned in this thread- I think I liked the results of that better. With the beers that I normally brew, I haven’t found an astringency problem when the grains are all mashed together. I prefer to mash them all together. I do mill the darker grains slightly tighter than the base grain though.
I honestly believe that all you’re doing by adding them late is decreasing extraction. The increased “smoothness” is just because you’re getting less flavor contribution from the roasted grains. This leads to needing more grain to get the same flavor impact, and that negates the changes you made in the first place.
The best thing I’ve done to improve the quality of my porters and stouts is to use baking soda to increase my mash pH to a target of 5.5-5.6. I mash my roasted malts with the rest of my grain because it’s simpler, and I end up with the flavor I’m looking for.
The results are markedly different and a recipe perfected for one method cannot be brewed the other way.
I prefer to mash all together, but I believe that there is a place for late steeping. One thing that I’ve noted during the early mashing period with some roast grains is that there is a lot of rich roast aromas coming off. I think that we might be able to keep more of those roast aromas with a late addition.
But it’s important to know that adding a late roast addition without having enough alkalinity will result in a more acidic beer with sharper and less smooth roast flavors. Better chemistry does make better beer.
Later this year, I am going to do a controlled experiment with mashing the darker grains with the rest of the grist vs. adding them to the mash after conversion to more closely analyze the flavor and aroma differences. I have done it both ways in the past, but want to do in a more controlled manner using both methods.
The reason for this is when I brew my imperial stout, the grain bill is so big that if completely fills my mash tun, a keggle, when doing a five gallon batch (almost 34 lbs of grain). I have mashed the lighter grains to get the proper pH for conversion and then added the darker grains during the 10 minute mash-out. I get the proper color doing it this way. I have also made the beer by putting in all of the grains at once and have taken care not to overflow the mash tun by reducing the liquor to grist ratio (it happened once). This gives me a pretty thick mash and tends to reduce my efficiency numbers, and I usually have to further adjust the mash pH back up to the proper range with baking soda or pickling lime. I have not tried the steeping approach.
I have noticed that the “all in” method makes a pretty tasty beer. It has been a while since i have added the darker grains during the mash-out, but doing a controlled experiment will further validate which is the best method. I will report my results.
I brewed an ‘all in the mash’ (to include base, choc, crystal, and brewing salts) batch of Brown Ale which is on tap now. The ‘all in’ mash pH was 5.4. I found a pinch of salt in the glass enhances this beer so I know I was a bit shy there.
Then, I brewed a batch of Brown Ale holding the Choc and Crystal to the mash out/vorlauf + sparge (resulting in ~30 min total hot steep) as well as only adding 1 tsp of CaCl to the mash and holding the other salts to the BK which is fermenting now. The base malt only mash pH was 5.2. I used the same water chemistry knowing I probably should have added a bit more salt to taste.
The color wasn’t an issue as both turned out about the same: a beautiful chestnut brown. Of course, the proof is in the pudding.
I plan to do a pint-by-pint side-by-side comparison to see which I like best as well. It will be interesting to see which you prefer and if it matches what I prefer.
Granted, I’m no super taster or a trained beer judge, but I believe I can taste two beers and see which I like the best.
I’ve never tried it but I’m wondering if this might be yet another tool to separate a (my) Stout from a (my) Porter.
Go “all in” on the Stout with the dark grains in for the full mash, keep it nice and roasty, mash low-ish, keep it dry.
Hold back on the dark grains for the Porter, tamp the roast down, mash a little higher, finish a bit more chewy.
Not sure it will make much difference, but I may give this a shot on my next Porter.
Great topic.
I spent years trying carafa, or cold steeping, or late additions to try to “smooth out” my porter. It finally got so smooth it was insipid. No character. I finally went back to adding an oz. or 2 of black patent to it to give it a bit of a bite. That was what I was missing.
This has been discussed before: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=25145.0
I believe he didn’t give the capped grain enough time. The evidence was the color difference. A 30 min hot steep would have been more like it.
[Edit] Later Brülosophy trials shows longer steep times were indistinguishable between capped vs ‘all in’. exBEERiment | Roasted Grains: Full Mash vs. Steeped In Wort In A Foreign Extra Stout | Brülosophy
How to Brew Chap 13: “ The factors that influence how well the sugars are extracted are the steeping time, temperature and the particle size.”
He goes on: “Steeping specialty grain is like making tea. The crushed grain is soaked in hot 150 - 170°F degree water for 30 minutes. Even though a color change will be noticeable early on, steep for the entire 30 minutes to get as much of the available sugar dissolved into the wort as possible.”
Ref: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/steeping-specialty-grains/mechanics-of-steeping
I first heard of cold steeping from a post by George Fix on HBD back in maybe 2005 (?). He quoted Mary Ann Gruber from Briess, who I believe was one of the first to talk about it…
Question to Dr. Fix:
On the Brews & Views discussion board a couple months ago, someone mentioned a talk you gave regarding cold steeping of malts like Munich. I would very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on this technique. How do you do it, what does it do for the brew, what malts are good candidates for this technique.
Dr. Fix:
The talk was in the NCHF at Napa in October. Those folks on the left coast really know how to do a beer festival! The cold steeping procedure was designed to maximize the extraction of desirable melanoidins, and at the same time minimize the extraction of undesirable ones. The former are simple compounds which yield a fine malt taste. The undesirable ones come from more complicated structures. Polymers with sulfur compounds tend to have malt/vegetable tones. Others yield cloying tones, which to my palate have an under fermented character. The highest level melanoidins can even have burnt characteristics. The cold steeping procedure was developed by Mary Ann Gruber of Briess. My version goes as follows.
(i) One gallon of water per 3-4 lbs. of grains to be steeped is brought to a boil and held there for 5 mins.
(ii) The water is cooled down to ambient, and the cracked grains are added.
(iii) This mixture is left for 12-16 hrs. at ambient temperatures, and then added to the brew kettle for the last 15-20 mins. of the boil.
Mary Ann has had good results by adding the steeped grains directly to the fermenter without boiling, however I have not tried that variation of the procedure.
The upside of cold steeping is that it works. The downside is that it is very inefficient both with respect to extract and color. In my setup I am using 2-3 times the malt that would normally be used. As a consequence I have been using it for “adjunct malts” such as black and crystal. I also am very happy with the use of Munich malts with this process when they are used as secondary malts.
I’m not talking about cold steeping. I am talking about hot steeping for 30 min.
oops…sorry!
I mashed Blackprinz with the rest of my grist today. It was not much of a test, as I only used 2oz and Blackprinz is significantly less bitter than standard black patent malt. The wort was very tasty going into the primary.