BIAB - Is there some benefit to using less water to mash in with, say like 5 gallons for 10-12lbs of grain, and then rinsing the draining grain bag with 2 gallons of 170F water
VS
mashing in with 7 gallons from the start, and no rinsing afterward?
Is there some aspect of the mash efficiency that Im missing out on by simplifying the process by mashing in with all my water from the start? I do squeeze the grain bag while its draining…
Though I do not BIAB, I do mash in a bag in a separate MLT. I have done no sparge full volume mash and batch sparge. I found I get more efficiency by sparging. The only basic difference in what I do and what you do is transfer the wort after the mash into a BK. I see no reason BIAB should be any different in regard to gaining efficiency by sparging.
Like BrewBama, I do MIAB. I don’t sparge and see a BHE of 70%. My mash efficiency hangs around 77%. For the few extra points I can’t justify the time and hassle of sparging. Some people like to strive for the highest efficiency they can get. That’s fine, but I’m happy with my way.
I guess in my extremely scientific minds eye, I can see the grains having an easier time giving up their goodness in a more dilute solution, with room to spread, rather than an already congested starch soup?
Now for everyone who uses the MIAB method - why? Why go to the trouble of that last step of having to transfer the wort to the BK? Why not just do it all in the kettle? Not criticising, just curious, if for reasons other than efficiency…
The reason I mash in a separate MLT is crystal clear for me. (I like to have crystal clear wort in the BK.) I do not believe I can get crystal clear wort in the kettle with BIAB. Some say it doesn’t matter and a waste of time. They might be right. I won’t debate the value but will only say it matters to me.
This is one of my hobbies and making brewday as fast as possible is not a goal for me. I enjoy the processes as well as the product. I do not consider simply transfering from a MLT to a BK trouble. Likewise, I do not consider sparging trouble. I enjoy it.
Making a brew day fast is not my goal, but avoiding unnecessary effort is. I found that when I increased the amount of mash water I used, my efficiency increased a bit. I also sparge BIAB because why not? I usually end up in the 75-78% efficiency range.
OK, as if on cue, my efficiency on a batch Im brewing today seems to be only 60%…14 lbs of belgian pilsner malt in 8 gallons of water (7g RO + 1g tap), in a 10g pot, at 153-156F for 80 mins. I squeezed the grain bag before taking a sample and cooling it to 68F, then taking a hydrometer as well as an identical refractometer reading of 1.044. Which the efficiency calc says is just below 60%.
Perhaps Ive got my own answer in that result…
Ugh, I would really like to be in the 75% range. Any suggestions as to how I can increase that? I do not own a ph meter yet, so I could not take a mash ph reading…so I dont know that. My guess is that was the culprit…
fyi - my city water is fairly hard (330) and alkaline (222). My RO filter plant removes all but 11ppm out of the 550ppm in city water. One gallon of that wasnt enough to land the mash in the right territory Id guess. Im still a bit fuzzy on exactly how to amend my water, per style of beer.
Today’s batch had 18# grain, 1/2# rice hulls, and 12 Gallons of H2O, don’t think that’ll all fit in a 10 Gallon BK.
pH can probably help your efficiency but I think not sparging is the smoking gun for your efficiency number. To reach your desired OG you may want to add malt extract for this batch and increase the grain for the future.
If you decide the benefits to sparge exceeds the trouble of sparging in the future, your efficiency will probably improve. Low efficiency for the homebrewer is a few dollars worth of grain or extract. For some, trading the dollars for not sparging is worth it.
As an aside: what efficiency calculator are you using? I am always interested to hear when someone says I get X% efficiency what went into the calculation(s). I often find variations.
Also, why an 80 min mash? How did you know it was complete? Maybe you simply didn’t give it enough time.
As far as water goes: Do you have a water calculator? If not I recommend Bru’n water. It will give you an estimated pH so even without a meter you can at least have a ballpark guess. I find the pH estimate remarkably close each batch.
Gotcha, didnt think of that…
Are you milling your own grains or is your supplier? The biggest mash efficiency thief is too coarse of a grind. Most suppliers mill grains on the coarse side. This is especially bad for BIAB. A grain mill is almost a must if you do BIAB.
As for why I do MIAB, I’ve got a couple of reasons. I’m over 70 and cant take the temperature extremes. We get lots of 100+ days during the summer and quite often don’t get above 25 or 30 for several days at a time during the winter. Also, I’m having a hard time lifting the water jugs to pour them into the kettle. Here’s a link to a post I did on my system. It solved both problems and I can also maintain mash temperatures within a degree or so for an hour long mash. EMIAB 2 Vessel System. | Make Beer at Home Forums | Brewer's Friend
I have sparged before, it just gets a little messy, pouring hot water down through the grain bag, as it hangs and drains over the BK. Hence my shift to simply adding that much more water to the initial mash in and squeezing ALL the water I can out of the grain bag at the end of the drain, and before the pre boil gravity reading, as the stove heats the kettle on its way to a boil. Its not a question of dollars for me, I just thought I was working smarter. Perhaps not. The grain had been put through the mill twice, so its not a question of that…
Im using the Conversion selection at the https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/Brewers Friend calc…I think the conversion and pre-boil efficiency selections are the same, for my method. I cant see the difference when BIABing.
BUT, I have to admit, I did not know of the efficiency calculator at brewers friend, and so I cannot compare with past batches. Today was the first time Ive actually measured that. In the past, I simply did the iodine test; Id read if a shallow sample doesnt change color when resting on a white plate, after the iodine add, then your efficiency is around 70-75%. Not sure where I got that, but my samples have never darkened, so I assumed I was doing ok. Then again, many of my beers have tasted a bit thin…mouthfeel was not very full.
I went 80 mins, precisely to get more out of the grain. Ive done a few belgian tripels before and its seems common to do a 90 min mash for all that belg pilsner malt. I just got a little impatient and cut off 10 mins shy. Would 10 mins make that much difference? Ive never heard of going longer than 90 mins for a mash.
I will begin using Brunwater. I also ordered a ph meter. Will a lower efficiency and a lower OG affect the taste of the beer in the end? If there’s one thing Ive never been a big fan of, its high abv beers. But perhaps that high abv contributes to the overall taste? Without realizing it, maybe thats why Im so fond of tripels, but always thought the taste profile was seperate from the abv…maybe not.
Yeah, I specifically asked them to mill it twice since I was a BIAB brewer. Ironically, one of my best beers was an 80-acre clone, the grain of which looked like the mill had been set too coarse for. I made the beer anyway, and it turned out great. I did extend that mash time however, and maybe thats why…
Your setup looks very interesting, although I was surprised to see you are electric. I had assumed you had bunches of old coolers. Re the 5g jugs, I just put my RO water into plastic 1g jugs, left from the days Id run to the store and grab 10g of distilled water in 1g jugs for each brew. What a pain. I love my RO system. But 1g jugs arent too heavy…
Also - how do you lift the grain bag out of your MLT? Or raise it to drain?
I believe the iodine test is not a very good indicator of whether or not you’re still getting gravity points from a given mash. I believe the best way to know if your gravity points are still increasing or have stabilized is to measure gravity. A refractometer is a great tool for this because of the small sample size that cools quickly.
FWIW: I routinely mash 90 min because I found for my system set up and processes it has been taking 90 min until I no longer measure a gravity increase. Your system will most likely be different.
I prefer a more permeable loose grain bed therefore wider mill gap for more grits than flour. I believe the enzymes only have to access the starch packet in the endosperm of the grain to convert it to sugar. By simply cracking the grain and wetting the grits, the enzymes will be able to do their job. Once the density of the sugar inside the cell walls is higher than the density outside, the sugar will pass thru the cell walls to reach equilibrium in the wort solution. You just have to give it time.
This should help you with a BIAB as well because as you slowly lift the bag the wort will drain thru the mash instead of around it due to a tight compact mash.
Mash pH really does matter and I also believe the calcium content of your mash will help β-amylase function.
Edit: instead of pouring the sparge water over the bag creating a mess, why not put the sparge water in a second pot and dunk the bag in it? Then add the sparge wort to the main wort and start the boil. Because there is no sugar in your sparge water, the sugars remaining in the cells of the grain will leach into the water until it reaches equilibrium. You could measure the gravity of the sparge wort to see how you did. I’ll bet you’ll be surprised at how much sugar you get in a 10 min batch sparge like that.
Whatever your system, ideally you’ll do both an iodine test and monitor wort density by either refractometer or hydrometer. Iodine test tells you that conversion is complete, that all starches have been broken into fermentable sugars and dextrines, not more complex sugars that can lead to instability in the beer. When you have reached the maximum wort density theoretically achievable, you are ready to run off your wort with the best possible efficiency in recovering that extract. You need to both convert the starch and recover the sugar. Neither test alone will tell whether you’ve achieved the goal. The iodine test indicates that carbohydrates have been appropriately degraded, while density measurements can reflect unconverted starch in solution. But having all the starch broken down doesn’t mean it’s been leached into the wort. Sorry if this post is poorly organized. Been relaxing after a brew day.
I agree with Denny here. I increased my water/grist ratio to 1.5 quarts/lb and saw an increase in efficiency. I did this based on a discussion we had on this forum after Martin’s article came out in Zymurgy. I can normally hit a BH around 80-85% for my lighter beers and 75-80% for the heavier ones.
Crush til you’re scared. Your pH is gonna have to be WAY off to make much difference.
^^^Yes. The enzymes travel more freely in a more dilute solution. And stirring makes it even better, which is why I don’t mash in a bag.
However…once you drain the wort from the grain, some of that sticky, sugary solution still clings to the grains, and sparging rinses more of the sugars out.
I brew (almost exclusively) high ABV ales, so collecting as much of those sugars as possible (ie, high efficiency numbers) means less boiling (and SRM darkening) to get the highest OG possible in my pre-boil volume.
I guess that means I’ll stick to the older, more labor intensive techniques, to get as much efficiency as possible.
^^^^^ One of the breweries I spent some time in last summer uses a mash filter and mills to nearly flour, their mash efficiency is in the high 90’s.