Max # of malts in commercial beer recipe

[system]

@hopfenundmalz

Here is one for you. From Zymurgy some years back, one of the Brewers helped on the recipe.

6 malts, and malt extract to hit the target OG. This is a big beer and commands a higher price.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10220.0

I can see a big stout having 6 different malts though perhaps not anything out the ordinary.  Most big stouts do command a premium.  Thanks for this.

[system]

@toby

In running a commercial brewery is there a reasonable maximum number of malts that the brewer employs in a recipe due to cost, workflow, availability etc… (obviously there’s no hard limit or theoretical limit)?

What are some reasons for this limit?

Would one ever find a commercial beer recipe that employs 7 or 8 different malt types as in some homebrew recipes?  Does this add a lot of cost to the recipe for a commercial brewery?

In most cases, KISS principle.  That being said, there are brewers that use multiple malts for various reasons.  NOLA Brewing’s Brown Ale has 8 different malts in it in order to add complexity to a low ABV beer (DEM in the 3.9% ABV range).  Other times, there may be a gimmick involved.  Schmaltz brewing has an anniversary beer that uses the number of malts that correspond to their age.  Until last year, they were going for everything around a theme (e.g. 17 malts, 17 hops, 17% ABV).  For 18 they kept the malts and hops, but kept the ABV to between 12-13% since they wanted to maximize their distribution.

[quote]We’ve all heard that “simple is better” but it seems commercial brewery outfits are forced into compliance with this cliché. (i.e. no Munich Dunkel with 6 types of malts…)

If commercial breweries are keeping it simple what makes homebrewers think that their many malt recipe will be “good” or that all of the malts are contributing something useful?

Personally, I’ve been trying to work on simplifying my grain bills the past few years.  Usually, the only styles where I’m using more than a couple are dark styles.

[/quote]

NOLA Brown Ale @ 7 malts is interesting, never tried it, does it command a premium price?

Dark styles it is, though one might try a simple ale with 1 pound of 10 different base malts… may add some complexity… if not confuse those drinking it…

[majorvices]

I think that it is common in commercial brewing to find limited amount of specialty malts in a beer because of the sheer difficulty of keeping so many malts in inventory, but aside from that there is no limiting factor.

Off the top of my head here are the malts I have in stock right now, and I bet it rivals most of the homebrewers on this forum.

Best Pils
Best Vienna
Best Munich I
Best Munich II
Best Wheat
Best Smoked Malt
Briess Pale Ale Malt
Briess Midnight Wheat
Weyermann Cara Red
Weyermann Carafa Special II
Thomas fawcett Rye Malt
Thomas Fawcett maris Otter
Thomas Fawcett Roast Barley
Thomas Fawcett Dark Crystal
Franco Belges CaraVienne
FrancoBelges CaraMunich
FrancoBelges Chocolate Malt
Flaked Rye
Flaked Barley
(there is probably another 10 varities I am omitting accidentally)

Now, granted, some of those are just a couple sacks a piece for small 1 bbl batches but I can plan any recipe I want and order those malts at any time. But for convenience factor I do try to minimize the amounts of malts that go into my beer. especially the flagships. For instance I order Best Pils, Munich, Vienna and Wheat my the pallet (each) while the specialty malts I order as a mixed pallet with maybe only 2-5 sacks on each order.

[system]

@majorvices

I think that it is common in commercial brewing to find limited amount of specialty malts in a beer because of the sheer difficulty of keeping so many malts in inventory, but aside from that there is no limiting factor.

Off the top of my head here are the malts I have in stock right now, and I bet it rivals most of the homebrewers on this forum.

Best Pils
Best Vienna
Best Munich I
Best Munich II
Best Wheat
Best Smoked Malt
Briess Pale Ale Malt
Briess Midnight Wheat
Weyermann Cara Red
Weyermann Carafa Special II
Thomas fawcett Rye Malt
Thomas Fawcett maris Otter
Thomas Fawcett Roast Barley
Thomas Fawcett Dark Crystal
Franco Belges CaraVienne
FrancoBelges CaraMunich
FrancoBelges Chocolate Malt
Flaked Rye
Flaked Barley
(there is probably another 10 varities I am omitting accidentally)

Now, granted, some of those are just a couple sacks a piece for small 1 bbl batches but I can plan any recipe I want and order those malts at any time. But for convenience factor I do try to minimize the amounts of malts that go into my beer. especially the flagships. For instance I order Best Pils, Munich, Vienna and Wheat my the pallet (each) while the specialty malts I order as a mixed pallet with maybe only 2-5 sacks on each order.

You have 30 malts in inventory but how many are used in a single recipe?  Which of your recipes has the highest malt count?  How does that contribute to the cost of the final product?  What is your highest “value” recipe and which ingredient makes it so (malt, hops, yeast, water, specialty ingredients)?

[toby]

NOLA Brown Ale @ 7 malts is interesting, never tried it, does it command a premium price?

Nope.  It’s one of their flagships and runs $8-10 a six pack, which is normal retail price for most locals.  It uses a lot of different malts, but at a 3.9% ABV, it’s not going to use a costly amount of each.

[majorvices]

To answer the question: Flagships use 3-4 malts, specialties can use as many as needed. You use specialty beers to market your flagships so you don’t worry about cost as much (though you do want to break even.). I don’t really have any incentive to share any more financial information from my brewery.

[hopfenundmalz]

Larger breweries get base grains by the semi load, or rail car load. Specialty grains in super sacks.

Buying in bulk applies for breweries, just as in Homebrewing.

[denny]

@thirsty_monk

Commercial Brewer are not limited an any way how many speciality malts they use.

It is matter of opinion, intention and taste. That’s that simple.

THIS^^^^ whatever it takes, and nothing more.

[system]

So the assertion made in a lot of clone brew articles that commercial breweries use less malts than home brewers is essentially false.  It’s just the authors of said articles justifying the use of the malts they’ve selected…

Heh. Mildly amusing… mostly annoying.

Apologies for grilling you guys like a cheese sandwich but we needs answers, we neeeeds answers!

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

So the assertion made in a lot of clone brew articles that commercial breweries use less malts than home brewers is essentially false.  It’s just the authors of said articles justifying the use of the malts they’ve selected…

Heh. Mildly amusing… mostly annoying.

Probably hard to generalize in such a booming industry - I’m sure some breweries use a lot more malts than others.

[hopfenundmalz]

So the assertion made in a lot of clone brew articles that commercial breweries use less malts than home brewers is essentially false.  It’s just the authors of said articles justifying the use of the malts they’ve selected…

Heh. Mildly amusing… mostly annoying.

Apologies for grilling you guys like a cheese sandwich but we needs answers, we neeeeds answers!

It depends on the beer the brewery actually makes, and the Homebrew recipe.

John Keeling has talked of how they make ESB, pretty simple. I remember ESB recipes had more malts when I started brewing 23 years ago.

Founders has some recipes that have a lot of malts, but then they make Mosaic Promise, which is a SMASH beer.

Have you talked to any local pros? I am sure they would at least talk in generalities.

I also recommend Gordon Stongs new book, he has a few complicated old recipes paired with simplified modern  versions.

[system]

@hopfenundmalz

So the assertion made in a lot of clone brew articles that commercial breweries use less malts than home brewers is essentially false.  It’s just the authors of said articles justifying the use of the malts they’ve selected…

Heh. Mildly amusing… mostly annoying.

Apologies for grilling you guys like a cheese sandwich but we needs answers, we neeeeds answers!

It depends on the beer the brewery actually makes, and the Homebrew recipe.

John Keeling has talked of how they make ESB, pretty simple. I remember ESB recipes had more malts when I started brewing 23 years ago.

Founders has some recipes that have a lot of malts, but then they make Mosaic Promise, which is a SMASH beer.

Have you talked to any local pros? I am sure they would at least talk in generalities.

I also recommend Gordon Stongs new book, he has a few complicated old recipes paired with simplified modern  versions.

The problem is that if a brewery makes a beer using 3 malts and homebrewer makes that very same beer using 4 malts then it’s not the same beer.

Oxymoronic?

[hopfenundmalz]

@hopfenundmalz

So the assertion made in a lot of clone brew articles that commercial breweries use less malts than home brewers is essentially false.  It’s just the authors of said articles justifying the use of the malts they’ve selected…

Heh. Mildly amusing… mostly annoying.

Apologies for grilling you guys like a cheese sandwich but we needs answers, we neeeeds answers!

It depends on the beer the brewery actually makes, and the Homebrew recipe.

John Keeling has talked of how they make ESB, pretty simple. I remember ESB recipes had more malts when I started brewing 23 years ago.

Founders has some recipes that have a lot of malts, but then they make Mosaic Promise, which is a SMASH beer.

Have you talked to any local pros? I am sure they would at least talk in generalities.

I also recommend Gordon Stongs new book, he has a few complicated old recipes paired with simplified modern  versions.

The problem is that if a brewery makes a beer using 3 malts and homebrewer makes that very same beer using 4 malts then it’s not the same beer.

Oxymoronic?

Do you know of Brewers that have put in a bigger brew house, and kept the old brew house in production? They use all of the same ingredients under the same roof with the same Brewers and procedures. They dump batches due to the beer being different. The bigger system has more efficiency and better utilization.

Homebrewers may try and duplicate a beer. They can get close. We can’t always buy the same exact ingredients. We don’t have the breweries process and equipment. Adjustments can be made to get closer in flavor while trying to clone a beer.

So where are you going with this thread?

[system]

@hopfenundmalz

@hopfenundmalz

So the assertion made in a lot of clone brew articles that commercial breweries use less malts than home brewers is essentially false.  It’s just the authors of said articles justifying the use of the malts they’ve selected…

Heh. Mildly amusing… mostly annoying.

Apologies for grilling you guys like a cheese sandwich but we needs answers, we neeeeds answers!

It depends on the beer the brewery actually makes, and the Homebrew recipe.

John Keeling has talked of how they make ESB, pretty simple. I remember ESB recipes had more malts when I started brewing 23 years ago.

Founders has some recipes that have a lot of malts, but then they make Mosaic Promise, which is a SMASH beer.

Have you talked to any local pros? I am sure they would at least talk in generalities.

I also recommend Gordon Stongs new book, he has a few complicated old recipes paired with simplified modern  versions.

The problem is that if a brewery makes a beer using 3 malts and homebrewer makes that very same beer using 4 malts then it’s not the same beer.

Oxymoronic?

Do you know of Brewers that have put in a bigger brew house, and kept the old brew house in production? They use all of the same ingredients under the same roof with the same Brewers and procedures. They dump batches due to the beer being different. The bigger system has more efficiency and better utilization.

Homebrewers may try and duplicate a beer. They can get close. We can’t always buy the same exact ingredients. We don’t have the breweries process and equipment. Adjustments can be made to get closer in flavor while trying to clone a beer.

So where are you going with this thread?

I’m practicing to be an attorney.

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

FWIW, you could have a brewery’s grist, hop schedule and mash schedule and still not make a perfect clone. Too many variables in ingredients, equipment and process.

[stpug]

In running a commercial brewery is there a reasonable maximum number of malts that the brewer employs in a recipe due to cost, workflow, availability etc… (obviously there’s no hard limit or theoretical limit)?
Yes.

What are some reasons for this limit?
Every brewery will have different reasons

Would one ever find a commercial beer recipe that employs 7 or 8 different malt types as in some homebrew recipes?  Does this add a lot of cost to the recipe for a commercial brewery?
Yes, and sometimes.

We’ve all heard that “simple is better” but it seems commercial brewery outfits are forced into compliance with this cliché. (i.e. no Munich Dunkel with 6 types of malts…)
I’ve heard that “simple is better”, but that doesn’t make it true, and there is no brewery that is “forced” into compliance of that statement.

If commercial breweries are keeping it simple what makes homebrewers think that their many malt recipe will be “good” or that all of the malts are contributing something useful?
Are they? I don’t think you can definitively say that commercial breweries ARE “keeping it simple” all of the time, therefore the rest of your assertion is moot. Some “many malt” beers are wonderful and some are not; flipside: most smash beers (opposite of “many malt”) are lacking any real complexity or redeeming character.

IMO, of course

[system]

I’m typically pretty patient but this thread is useless.

[system]

I’m typically pretty patient but this thread is useless.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you know of a commercial beer with high malt count?  Does it command a premium?

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

I’m typically pretty patient but this thread is useless.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you know of a commercial beer with high malt count?  Does it command a premium?

I’m at a loss - why do we care ?  If it’s good I’ll buy it. If not, not.

[system]

I’m typically pretty patient but this thread is useless.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you know of a commercial beer with high malt count?  Does it command a premium?

I’m at a loss - why do we care ?  If it’s good I’ll buy it. If not, not.

You don’t have to care, but that is the topic of this thread, “High malt counts in commercial beers”.